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Old 05-14-2021, 12:05 PM   #51
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At work we've been playing with EVs that use a gear box. The reason for this is that you can have a motor that works in a great efficiency range over a much larger ground speed.

As far as AC and PS, there are decently simple ways to get a BLDC motor and controller that will easily power both of those systems and only consume 500-800W of pawuhhh.
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Old 05-14-2021, 01:37 PM   #52
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Yeah I've no real interest in DC motors for long trips. It is the exact wrong thing if mileage is what you want. The little brushes in those things are rather inefficient my man and at 400 volts you asking for alot of heat thats why you dont see any manufacturers using them. Plus it has magnets so any any significant size construction becomes hazardous. It simply isnt the move if efficiency is the end game. Series wound dc motors have nothing ion the top end. The pull out great but have nor torque at high speed. Ther are good for drag motors not efficiency. Synchronous speed is really of no consequence when you are using a VFD and an induction or reluctance machine. The DC fork lift motor may make a fun project but it won win any Nobles as a viable alternative to FF. Texas has enough energy problems as it is....cant mess with them. They care less about alternative fuels. Its all relevant as *******s made saving the planet an issue of politics instead of common fukn sense! Your Governor certainly wont support your dream car or common sense. Fo$$il fueler$ all in hi$ pocket$!!!An no back up power plan coz we dont wanna pay taxes! His ALTERNATIVE you freeze!!!

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Old 05-14-2021, 01:49 PM   #53
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@ Cullberro I read you post. What i have posted is the cutting edge of motor winding a design. Its relevant and very few will speak on it as the tech is really new and eliminates all kinds of expensive tricks for high efficiencies >97% no one here including me likely even has the equipment at their home to accurately measure that last 3%. A Yokogawa is several grand. I can assure you no series wound dc motor comes anywhere near the efficiencies of the induction machine I showed you which is well over 94%. Elon will eyeball this for his future. Sit back and watch. Motor developer are looking for more mower dense machine in smaller form factors. And they dont wanna depend on china or p[ay for rare earth. Im almost sure science will land on machines with very little rare earth material sand will use ferrite to lessen the cost. Machines PM machines Like YASA and Halbachs will arrive soon enough for only the most high end endeavors like space. If i tell any motor builder that he can half his total losses just by changing a wind and nothing else he's instantly interested. If he's not he has very little knowledge about rotating machines.


Thank you for sharing,
Hubert

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Old 05-14-2021, 01:58 PM   #54
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So, do you have any plans to do an electric Volvo build?
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Old 05-14-2021, 02:10 PM   #55
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Im considering that but hobbling something together I'm not. Alot of planning and materials have to be acquired to do it right and certainly there are no investors here. Im not discouraging experimentation and fun coz that would be cool but I'm just telling you fun is all the dc motor will bring. Long distance with any significant speed or a vehicle that weight alot will not be easy. And the cells..... who really can afford them on a level to compete with a manufacturer. You will need so SERIOUS coin. Figure at least 6 figures. I have a car im going to show you that so small it bout fits in your hands but the cells to win he had to have sponsored. If you want a drag brick you'd just do that with a 9 or 10 inch series wound dc motor cells a massive h bridge and alot of cells. Then hold on. The very first car posted was about there. Thats def a series wound dc motor I dont know if its a warp 9 though.

Here's one and it is nearly 3 grand. Now image changing the cheap magnet to expensive Neos and require a drive 10 times as sophisticated. That's major cash bruh!
Here the torque speed relationship of that machine big pull from start nothing at the top but at the strip the race is already over after the first 60 feet.

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Old 05-14-2021, 02:24 PM   #56
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Now anyone that cannot see the difference in this PMFS machines curve versus that the one above it in the previous post then there's no need of me talking here. Ill only be speaking of def ears. Not trying to b ugly or funny im just saying this is pretty freaking obvious for anyone who actually knows. Im not against fun have at it but high efficiency is a no go with a antiquated brushed dc motor. Even this series wound dc machine which is better for pull out torque than a brushed dc motor, its ancestor. It is much heavier and way less power dense than almost any modern 3 phase machine tasked with the same work.

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Old 05-14-2021, 02:25 PM   #57
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I that what these are?

The folks on Endless Sphere could probably ID those cells for you
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=14
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Old 05-14-2021, 02:28 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hk 40 View Post
. The DC fork lift motor may make a fun project but it won win any Nobles as a viable alternative to FF. Texas has enough energy problems as it is....cant mess with them. They care less about alternative fuels. Its all relevant as *******s made saving the planet an issue of politics instead of common fukn sense! Your Governor certainly wont support your dream car or common sense. Fo$$il fueler$ all in hi$ pocket$!!!An no back up power plan coz we dont wanna pay taxes! His ALTERNATIVE you freeze!!!

Regards
Hubert

Um, do you realize where you are? This is Tbricks. There are no Noble Prize candidates here. We want it cheap and fast and cheap.
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Old 05-14-2021, 02:33 PM   #59
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6 figures and investors? Yeah, not really sounding like a turbobricks kind of project. LS swap is more in the $/fun ratio for me.
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Old 05-14-2021, 02:34 PM   #60
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Everyone thinks Tesla first but they should look at the development of the Prius . It is as good if not more impressive but no one likes little ugly Toyotas. However they have one helluva electric motor in them that some of the best in the world designed. Dr Hendrsot is an IEEE fellow.

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Old 05-14-2021, 02:34 PM   #61
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Personally I don't see the benefit of all the whiz-bangery just to say its efficient. You are adding tens of thousands of dollars in the sake of "efficiency" to an old Volvo. The base car is heavy, and has no aero at all.

I could see doing it your way if you started with a 1st gen insight or a Porsche 944 or some other reasonably light and aero car. For a 240 I'm satisfied with brute force and ignorance. Replace your VFD's and fancy electronics with a junkyard transmission. Then you get low-end torque, and a multiplier so you don't have to spin the motor all the way to it's inefficient state.
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Old 05-14-2021, 02:36 PM   #62
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6 figures and investors? Yeah, not really sounding like a turbobricks kind of project. LS swap is more in the $/fun ratio for me.
You dont have to spend that to have fun with your DC motor but you suggested extended distance and pretty substantial speed. Build an test your dreams is how you really know.

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Old 05-14-2021, 02:40 PM   #63
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Personally I don't see the benefit of all the whiz-bangery just to say its efficient. You are adding tens of thousands of dollars in the sake of "efficiency" to an old Volvo. The base car is heavy, and has no aero at all.

I could see doing it your way if you started with a 1st gen insight or a Porsche 944 or some other reasonably light and aero car. For a 240 I'm satisfied with brute force and ignorance. Replace your VFD's and fancy electronics with a junkyard transmission. Then you get low-end torque, and a multiplier so you don't have to spin the motor all the way to it's inefficient state.

Firstly the thread was created for brainstorming no ones built anything here that cost 6 figures and im certainly not going to get upset about it. Everyone in a free country builds what they want there is no issue and nothing new . Many people would no trash their Chevy for an old ass brick either. only the limited group here and in europe does that. Everyone else racer novas camaros 5.0 etc were the only fools playing with these ugly ass cars. That's a fact. There is no metric for ones visions or creativity . That's life. I suppose some who have done it would be upset and hate me because I never plan to put anything in my volvos but volvo. Its nutz but people fall apart over other grown mens choices and I think that's crazy as hell personally.


I got a modern LS but I wont be removing it from here..for a volvo. Even chevy will stop building them soon enuf so you have big fun at the futured junkyards.

The points missing for instance is the PMFS machine. It has no magnets and the wind I showed you actually eliminates the needs for expensive tricks that cost alot driving up the price for an efficient motor so what Im showing you is actually how you make a good one cheaper. If you wanted to try it in your volvo. Your ls will have a hard time with the series wound dc motor posted at the track and that's another fact. Put your LS brick up against the newest Tesla and see how it fares.... that will tell you exactly what you want to know and why.


Hubert
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Old 05-14-2021, 03:03 PM   #64
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And there certainly are some OLD volvos on this board with v8's in them that have well over 100,000 dollars in man hours ,fabrications, and parts in them and not one viewer is complaining. They all eyes..... I dont know how conclusions come so quick when the OP is still just trying to just look at all the links the other members have posted of it working before making declarations and I actually have experience with it. Its pretty stellar if you think about it. Its better if we all calm down and enjoy the discussion again. If you are one that doesn't buy into the e thing no need to be bothered with this thread at all. That's the god honest truth and the eazy way .

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-14-2021, 03:18 PM   #65
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You're getting harder and harder to understand.


You are correct, I said I'd like some range. I was talking about not less than 100 miles city driving. I've been following EV's for a while and reaching the 100 mile mark has been difficult or pricey for most DIY'ers on a budget. Most of them are lucky to get 30 miles on a charge.

I was hoping this thread might go something like: "Hey the battery packs form xxx car's are cheap and plentiful right now. That would be a good candidate" or "Hey, this motor/controller combo fits perfectly in a 240 check it out"....
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Old 05-14-2021, 03:27 PM   #66
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You're getting harder and harder to understand.


You are correct, I said I'd like some range. I was talking about not less than 100 miles city driving. I've been following EV's for a while and reaching the 100 mile mark has been difficult or pricey for most DIY'ers on a budget. Most of them are lucky to get 30 miles on a charge.

I was hoping this thread might go something like: "Hey the battery packs form xxx car's are cheap and plentiful right now. That would be a good candidate" or "Hey, this motor/controller combo fits perfectly in a 240 check it out"....
Is it or just a silly ass meme with some dhead in a foil dunce hat? Just what any good tread needs. No! well Im sorry that wasn't promised here nothing was. I think you understand me well but want to go on with this escalation of nonsense. If you've been at it awhile u say yourself know it isnt possible so why expect me to make a miracle. Wat sense does that make? You've been shown a motor wind can you do it? Do you care? So what is the point if you take me back 1000 years to a brushed dc machine likely the first motor that ever existed if it wasn't Teslas induction machine. I mean what are we doing now. The brushed motor wont likely achieve your goals and you dont want anything to sophisticated so its easy for me to just say I cannot help you with those goals. You can build it whatever it is you are thinking and show us how it works. That would be invited by many Im sure. Just ask you partner in the meme to help you. You asked me about the batteries and I told you I did not know thats that. 1. They are not of any particular high quality 2. they are used and salvaged that never the best. 3. I dont know wtf they come from

I hope were clear now.
Hubert

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Old 05-14-2021, 03:32 PM   #67
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At some point the supply of wrecked Teslas will start to increase, along with other BEV vehicles to source batteries or drivetrains.

https://www.copart.com/vehicleFinder...way%22:null%7D

Grab one of the faster Tesla drivetrain units, yank an axle out of your old car, and graft that in. The batteries will be an issue, most scratch built BEV's are riding on top of a battery pack skateboard, not very practical to retrofit something like that (unless you just scalp the body off and swap, which isn't really my idea of a powertrain swap, that's just cosplaying a Tesla).
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Old 05-14-2021, 03:36 PM   #68
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At some point the supply of wrecked Teslas will start to increase, along with other BEV vehicles to source batteries or drivetrains.


Grab one of the faster Tesla drivetrain units, yank an axle out of your old car, and graft that in. The batteries will be an issue, most scratch built BEV's are riding on top of a battery pack skateboard, not very practical to retrofit something like that (unless you just scalp the body off and swap, which isn't really my idea of a powertrain swap, that's just cosplaying a Tesla).
Hi John,
Thanks... I will send you some additional information I have. When it gets crazy on board i just stop posting. It isnt worth it for me to argue about it with someone who is not gonna do a thing but come here and post silly ass memes and ignorant sht . Regionally its no surprise as it all rubs off from the top!! He here talking about a fukn brushed motor in the face of ABB's Hubertus wind. I dont not have time for dumb sht!

In the meantime this is DR Sariful Islams wye - d hybrid that added a coils span of 2 to the traditional to 1 and 12 teeth. This is 24 so they shifted the two 12 slot single layers machine and appropriate amount of slot tpo attenuate the bad harmonics which would be any not the working. On a 14 pole motor the 7th harmonic is the working so we want to eliminate the fundamental 2 pole and the 5th for starters. This reduces rotor an pm losses significantly and that improves your power factor and EFFICIENCY. Im given plenty to people that know wtf to do with it!
Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-14-2021, 03:52 PM   #69
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And FWIW, I have only the mildest curiosity about the current 'state of the art' in hacking junkyard parts into decently working (i.e. stoopid fast, range OK enough to not be utterly useless) project cars. I have absolutely no real interest in actually doing anything like that at this point, I just suspect at some point in the future I may have some slight interest.
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:03 PM   #70
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Nothing it all wrong with playing around in a junkyard I just wouldn't waste my time with a brushed dc motor. If you can get anything from a Tesla It will be great. Alot of expensive tech is already incorporated there.....

Regards
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:06 PM   #71
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1st EV that I rode in (not including a golf cart) was a Porsche 914 built by a guy I know (Otmar) that also designed and built the Zilla controllers. It was a blast and at that time DC motors was the way to go due to the obscene costs of AC controllers. https://www.cafeelectric.com/

I looked into converting our 242 into electric after I found a Hillman convertible someone had installed a large DC forklift motor into at the stockton Pick n Pull. When I brought the motor up to the counter to pay I just told them it was a starter motor, paid like $50 for it. Then I got the wake up call of how expensive the controllers and batteries would have cost. Sold the motor with a nice profit to a guy that wanted to put it in his Honda Accord.

pic of motor and car. http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpo...postcount=1657

Without a doubt AC is the way to go, there are more and conversions being made out there using the Tesla components, I am sure someone has to be using the Prius stuff as well.

As a fairly new Model Y owner myself, if I could justify the cost I'd love to have the 242 full electric as well. I don't even want to drive our other cars after daily driving the MY.
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:19 PM   #72
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1st EV that I rode in (not including a golf cart) was a Porsche 914 built by a guy I know (Otmar) that also designed and built the Zilla controllers. It was a blast and at that time DC motors was the way to go due to the obscene costs of AC controllers. https://www.cafeelectric.com/

I looked into converting our 242 into electric after I found a Hillman convertible someone had installed a large DC forklift motor into at the stockton Pick n Pull. When I brought the motor up to the counter to pay I just told them it was a starter motor, paid like $50 for it. Then I got the wake up call of how expensive the controllers and batteries would have cost. Sold the motor with a nice profit to a guy that wanted to put it in his Honda Accord.

pic of motor and car. http://forums.turbobricks.com/showpo...postcount=1657

Without a doubt AC is the way to go, there are more and conversions being made out there using the Tesla components, I am sure someone has to be using the Prius stuff as well.

As a fairly new Model Y owner myself, if I could justify the cost I'd love to have the 242 full electric as well. I don't even want to drive our other cars after daily driving the MY.
Bingo a pleasure to drive!

with a series wound dc motor the drive tech is minimal it would work on a knife switch but then there is no controllability there. An h bride for a dc motor is not so difficult and you should be able to find some bridge schematics or drives suitable in a place like endlessphere in which im very familiar just didnt want to go there at this time . Drives will do alot more if you keep them cool so think about a liquid cooled heat sink for it. One thing to think about Is Tesla has already incorporated alot of this in his induction machines im just trying to open the door with some cheap things DIYer can do to improve there motors efficiency tremendously with a simple amendment in winding topology. Its quite useful in the right hands. The problem comes when you run across people that have no hands. You can use the tech i share in rewinding your motor too make it better and more efficient. If a person cannot wind the motor I think it presumptuous to get into depth about high level drive design etc. flux barriers etc. So I wanted to give ideas to easy things to improve your efficiency. The fork lift motor was surely still a series wound dc not just a brushed dc machine. Its the pull out torque and the slow speed the forklift thrives with it but of course there is no folk lift that's truly a speed demon.

Regards
Hubert

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Old 05-14-2021, 04:21 PM   #73
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Hubert, if you added at least one period and maybe a comma to some of your posts it would be a little easier to understand. As it is it reads like total gibberish.


John, the Tesla drive train package is huge. It would be quite difficult to put it into a standard RWD car. Not to mention the pattery packs are the aforementioned skateboard style and getting to the individual cells is time consuming, then you have to repackage them into something useful for your DIY vehicle.

It's almost always better to buy new cells (LTO cells are the bomb) so that you save time and effort in packaging. They usually aren't that much more expensive to just buy new.


As far as motors go, Lexus has some really cool CVT transmissions with pretty big 3 phase motors built in to the Bell housing. These can be run standalone as a few people have proven already.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...sions_it_just/

There is even a nicely packaged rear transaxle in the Lexus RX450H which could be used to drive the front wheels in an AWD setup if you so chose. That would make a sweet ride that could run pretty hard having a combined 300-400 HP with the right parts. The CVT/Motor combos are all in the 200+ HP range. They are decently stout packages.

I know folks are going to poo-poo the CVT, but come on. We are already talking electric cars here. Adding a CVT to a 3 phase motor makes a ton of sense since you can spin the motor up to it's more efficient range, then use the CVT to launch and accelerate.


List of donors: http://like.cz/mix/_stabilni/mazdath...s_overview.pdf
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:48 PM   #74
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Well I'm no english major but if you want you can clean it up. I assume you understand it since you answer back so grammatically correct. I was done with English comp a long time ago and since english isnt my native tongue if it gets messed up sometimes it'l bee aright. U got one helluva job cut out for you here if you are going to be the grammar police on the performance car forum.

Thanks for your concerns..

Oh boy.


Ich bin hier draußen!

Check you emails John, Mueller. This will all fall to the bottom soon enuf. It already had really. Should the period go after the emoji? I dunno. But certainly imma let the English majors and the dunce with the bling on his hat carry it with a brushed dc machine..... HA!!

TTYL

Hubert

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Old 05-14-2021, 04:55 PM   #75
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That Lexus setup is interesting and for now not much demand so it “should” be reasonable cost wise.
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