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Old 01-03-2016, 12:49 PM   #1
TCornish
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Hi all,

Sticking this out here, I'm planning on doing the usual turbo swap to my RHD 240 soon, it'll still be a daily driver for sure however, so not looking for massive horses.

Being in the UK there's an abundance of Cossie bits and bobs about, especially regarding T3 turbos. I've trawled through the threads on here, seems everyone is going for a .48 hotside with a 52/60 compressor. I aimed to go for 15G, but with the options available over here regarding the Ford scene, and upgrade options for T3, I've decided to stick with the latter.

Here's what I'm aiming for so far;

B230FK/FT with;

Most likely brown top or VXR injectors.
012 MAF with the 3" throttle body, modified K-jet manifold for EFI. Being fabricated up soon, just need to TIG the intake flange on.
Either V or A cam
Adjustable pulley
3" exhaust.
Ebay or AutoSiliconeHoses intercooler - the latter fits right in the front with no problems.
It'll have the 5 speed manual M90 gearbox bolted to it as well.. So none of this auto nonsense.

Seeing as it's a daily driver, I wont be requiring much of the top end, as in upwards of 5/6000rpm, so some good low to mid-range/low top end would be ideal. I've heard a few bits about this elusive '50 trim' T3 that's about... But school me more if needed. Will the .48 turbine with say a 52/60 compressor side aid this setup, or am I talking bollocks? What would you recommend?

All advice taken on the chin...!

Tim

Last edited by TCornish; 01-03-2016 at 12:56 PM..
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Old 01-03-2016, 01:17 PM   #2
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Calling John V for cossie turbo info.
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Old 01-03-2016, 01:58 PM   #3
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I had a feeling he'd be the man to ask.. I do enjoy a Cossie, friend of mine has a W201 Cossie with Jenvey ITB's. It's a dream.

Tim
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Old 01-03-2016, 02:47 PM   #4
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Tim just get a 4x4 unit..aka TB0387...They ahve a slightly larger compressor wheel than the 2wd units and a bit bigger ID on the air inlet...unless you score a killer deal on a 2wd thing.
IF you find a 2wd one you'll have to pull the studs out...
You din't say which manifold you have but if ealier, look at the options of using the 2wd turbine housing---which is threaded M10 x 1.5mm---or if you have the "90+" maifold, you'll of course need to surface it and I have always drilled the mount stud holes out to the aforementioned M10 x 1.5mm.

Either way you'll have to re-clock the compressor housing and that brings with it repositioning the waste gate actualtor mounting bracket..Just so happens early old B21 T3 brackets are spiffy for that job....

Hook it up to a nice 3 " system and you're nearly done.

And as for actualtors: better genuine Garett something you know than some anodised pretty thing.

With THAT turbo---I'd stick with the "boring ol" T cam.

Docile enough to putter down the High Street down to the Kebab Palace... fun on old back B roads and fine for cruise to work.

And if you give 'er th' full wellie it is quick and strong right up to fuel cut...

Oh injectors

---Cossie Yellow or Blue (stock) safe to a real 275 Bee Haitch Peas.
Volvo dark green 80? good to 300.
"Dark Green" 803s good up to past 330 ---they come off Porsche 944T..

Wouldn't bother wif anything till i did just these thuings
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Old 01-03-2016, 03:14 PM   #5
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Tim just get a 4x4 unit..aka TB0387...
http://www.invasionautoproducts.com/19realtbtu46.html


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Old 01-03-2016, 03:16 PM   #6
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Hi John,

Cheers for the reply, I had a feeling you'd be the man to ask!

Manifold wise it's a '90+' one, as the engine will be coming from a late 1995 onwards 940, 13mm rods, piston squirters, the lot. There's an engine machining shop in my village that recondition vintage Bentley, Rolls-Royce and Lotus engines, plus Mikina Engineering on the same site, so I'll get the manifold faced and drilled/tapped there.

I'll see if I can find a B21 Garrett bracket off the Forum here, see if a member has one Stateside or I'll see about fabricating my own. Indeed, I've read a few bits about Chinese/repro actuators, not my type of thing... Buy the brand I say.

T cam sounds about right, I have an A cam on offer to me so I may try that too. Block mounted distributor of course....

I'll get in touch with a few Ford Cossie chaps I know and see what they have available. All I see on TBricks is usually the larger HP turbos being recommended, but not much for the daily driver/scoot on motorway but will still be quite peppy and brisk type. They do recommend, if I can't find a Cossie hotside, the 'ATP Ultimate Housing'.. Which is another thing to look at. All they do recommend, is a .48 hotside, with the .50 or .60 trim compressor, that should flow quite well for what I want and application.

Tim

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Old 01-03-2016, 03:41 PM   #7
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I have a Cosworth Turbo on my 240 as well. B230F engine with turbo bits added. Really nice with the V cam. But, the T works good too for DD.
Torque wise, its fine. Mine has the rare .63 A/R exhaust housing. Coupled with a normal 60 mm 60 trim .42 A/R compressor it can give a bit of boost by 2000 rpm and I think it is at the 8-9 PSI I set the wastegate to around 2500. Everyone who drives this car like the torque (and power of course).

Not sure if the original 240/740 turbo bracket is compatible with the Cosworth. It fits but not sure if it places the actuator where it belongs, the Cosworth and normal T3 turbines have different locations for the lever.
I'd look for the Cosworth housing, the ATP is probably more expensive by the time it is in the UK. To my untrained eyes the Cosworth housing has better wastegate placement, bigger flapper, etc.

When messing with cams, a nice ignition chip to match the cam is not a bad idea. You can modify chips yourself btw but it takes time.
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Old 01-03-2016, 03:54 PM   #8
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I have heard the .55 and .63 housings can be better, but they're a little more hard to come by. Latter improves top end quite a bit (of course), but the .55 sits in the middle.

Sounds like a plan I may be interested in then - currently reading up on Passion Ford about the best combinations for the T3, not too much and not too little, came across this;

http://passionford.com/forum/ford-si...g-is-best.html

From what is being posted, the .48 or .55 definitely seems about right. ATP housing is £180, I think, I'll check, and that's without postage. There's a Cossie housing for £75/$110 on Fleabay in the UK, quite a few about, but will check out the Cossie Forums and Ford 'buy N sell' Facebook groups too.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/escort-rs-...AAAOSwAKxWZCxZ

Have no chipping experience myself, would a Stoni/TLAO chip be wise? The engine is on LH2.4, of course.
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:11 PM   #9
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Hi Tim, best of luck. I will be watching to see how you get on and how I can copy you in future heheh.
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:25 PM   #10
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Hi Tim, best of luck. I will be watching to see how you get on and how I can copy you in future heheh.
You're not far from me! I'm in south Wiltshire myself. Nice 940... Was that at a VolvoTuning.net meet?
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:39 PM   #11
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I was at RAF Cosford in the white 940 saloon in my profile, yep.
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Old 01-03-2016, 04:59 PM   #12
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Wasn't able to make it to that meet, I'm admin on the 'Volvo 240 Owners UK' group on there, I know a few of our members did go - quite a good turn out! Only been to Cosford for aviation reasons... My other past time and career is flying, so makes sense.

I may be going to Wellesbourne XM655 meet, possibly, but definitely RetroRides Gathering 2016. Anyway, back to Cossie T3 talk...

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Old 01-03-2016, 05:01 PM   #13
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Ahh cool. Might see you at future events then!
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Old 01-03-2016, 09:01 PM   #14
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Hopefully so! Anyway, back to Cossie talk... Anyone else on here running one, or?
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:21 PM   #15
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Hopefully so! Anyway, back to Cossie talk... Anyone else on here running one, or?
Has to be at least 30-35.
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Old 01-03-2016, 11:31 PM   #16
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:55 AM   #17
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I take it majority of them are using T3/T4 hybrids?

Lord Athlon - what is your setup if I may ask? Would a. 48 or. 55/63 trim be ideal for my application? What compressor side would be best for what I'm after?

Tim
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:26 AM   #18
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I vote .48 A/R turbine housing. If you stay with the same 60 mm exducer exhaust wheel, the differences won't be enormous (correct me if i'm wrong, driven with the 45-50-60 trim compressors on different cars with different setups so ymmv).
Will be a fast spooling (maybe not 15G style fast?) turbo. Those combinations will run out of steam before you hit the 300 hp mark, after that the 69mm 7 blade compressor seems like a good step up.

Remember that the Volvo coolant lines use M16x1.5 banjo bolts and the Ford (and rest) T3 use M18x1.5 cooling line thread. I adapted the Volvo lines, drilled out the banjo couplings with a stepped drill and modified some M18 banjo bolts for my T3 (made them shorter and added a wide groove where the water flows.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TCornish View Post
I take it majority of them are using T3/T4 hybrids?

Lord Athlon - what is your setup if I may ask? Would a. 48 or. 55/63 trim be ideal for my application? What compressor side would be best for what I'm after?

Tim
No, the majority were JUST the .48 turbine housing, a bracket and a actuator
Some got complete straight 2wd Turbos---slightly bigger compressor wheel than stock Volvo T3
Some got straight 4x4 Cossie units. Even bigger wheel and inlet hole on compressor side.
ALL but 2-3 got a/r .48

One guy in particular got both a/r...eh arse? .48 and .63...as well as my long rods and CP forged pistons in his ex-works Group A car down in Oz. As a ROADRACE car, he said he liked the .63 better eg with closer ratio box, on a circuit where its pretty much full wellie all the time.
Any other use, any wider box and I say .48
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:37 AM   #20
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I ran one with a T04E 46 trim in a .70AR housing. The housing had what seemed like an early version of anti-surge machining, which i relied upon heavily in this setup. Didn't work tho. Would easily spool too fast and surge.

But I had to try!!!!

Kicked a$$ everywhere else. Was a blast on the interstate!

The newer anti-surge housings seem much better so if you are sticking with a .48 ar and questing for big power, I'd opt for a stg III hotside wheel.

If not, and you're not an idiot like me that's always trying to find some ideal nexus between a fast spooling setup and bigger numbers, TAKE JOHNS ADVICE!!!

And, as mentioned before, the bracketry can be tough. I've had a Dickens of a time getting the wg actuator setup on both of the cossie setups I've run.
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Old 01-04-2016, 11:07 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TCornish View Post
I take it majority of them are using T3/T4 hybrids?

Lord Athlon - what is your setup if I may ask? Would a. 48 or. 55/63 trim be ideal for my application? What compressor side would be best for what I'm after?

Tim
Mine is a stock turbine wheel, and a 60 trim/.60ar compressor off of a Merkur/Sierra.

.48/.60 and it goes nicely. Not huge power mind you, but a nice useable powerband.

This was also done to the exhaust housing



John will criticize, but this is a 3" vband directly off of the turbo. Why neck it down if you dont have to?
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Old 01-04-2016, 11:16 AM   #22
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Cheers John and BDKR for the replies. I think I'll settle upon a .48 housing then. I'll have a scout about on the Forums here and PassionFord for any good compressors. Seeing as I'm not for 'big power', more for street/daily driver, then the whole big compressor thing doesn't do it for me, unless it's useful in the 40-90mph powerband. Like you say Lord_Athlon, 48/60 may be ideal..! At least it'll be paired to an M90 Redblock gearbox from a 940, so 5 speed usable gears will be great.

I found a great article from Fast Ford Mag last night, you'll like it John (unless you've seen it before);

http://www.fastfordmag.co.uk/files/2...271.turbo_.pdf

Will be studying the compressor side in depth from now on, seeing as I'll settle upon a .48 turbine. I've been offered a T3 off a 740 Turbo Intercooler, which I assume would be the 50 trim compressor. That may be a worthwhile compromise... Time for more homework perhaps, and to scan some more threads.

Tim

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Old 01-04-2016, 12:35 PM   #23
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Mine is a stock turbine wheel, and a 60 trim/.60ar compressor off of a Merkur/Sierra.

.48/.60 and it goes nicely. Not huge power mind you, but a nice useable powerband.

This was also done to the exhaust housing



John will criticize, but this is a 3" vband directly off of the turbo. Why neck it down if you dont have to?
Agreed . Why neck that nice 64mm outlet down? And quick release? Sure..
Especially nice if you MUST do quick swaps and you have a spare on the shelf in the service barge....

If you want more powerz, that nice article mentioned a hybrid using Escort Cossies TB0340 compressor and housing with the .48 a/r from 2wd and 4wd Sierras..
I've spoken with Ahmed Bayjoo, Graham Goode and Phil Collins and all mentioned that they "sold a pile of those" to road car guys...

See the various cars Ford made were made for specific series..
The 3 door Sierra Cosworth was built for one reason: Beat Volvo 240T in ETTC and WTCC.

It did that job admirably..Annihilated them. So good that it wrecked the class which became a virtual single make series..
It does say something though how good the GroupA 240 was if it became the target...

So Ford makes 5000 3 door Cossies so that they qualify for Group A's min numbers AND THEN!!! They take advantage of the new allowance for roadracing only allowing "evolution" parts--which have to be Homologated and detailed in the papers of a further 10%--or another 500 cars.
Thus the RS500 was born
THOSE got a small T4 --but a T4 all the same and bigger than any T3 made (just) to meet the target of "over 500 bhp"

By time Ford got around to making 4x4 Cossies, they were intentionally making a car for rallying---and Ford DID intend to contest the class for "Series Production sedans" or Group N.
So the basic 5000 cars got the very nice all round TB0387...remember GpN cars had stock ratios in the box and stock final drive (3.62:1)
In those days Group A cars had a 40mm ID restrictor on the compressor inlet and Group N cars had 38mm restrictor....Group A cars could make right around 390-395 hp, and the GpN cars around 370...
But turbo life was "limited'....hence the slotted mounting flanges and the famous "11 minutes to change a HOT turbo" that we all heard about...11 minutes --with the right gloves..

When Escort Cossie came along it was for the word go intended to be a Group A rally car.
So it got bits that would work with the 40mm restrictor AND the 7 or 6 speed gearbox AND early aggressive anti-lag which made about 14 psi at an "idle" speed of around 1500 rpm...
So with closer ratios AND anti lag Ford went to the .63 A/R turbine housing and the bigger compressor wheel in the TB0340....

Goode, Bayjoo and Collins all asked about our US rules in rally and at the time we had simply "40mm restrictor" and no gawddam homologation requirements and they all jumped at that and said more or less "Holy sh!t! That's great! OK do this: get a .48 turbine housing and combine it with the housing and wheel off the TB0340...This is the best combo you can do. Works well with wide ratio box, its safe up to at least 390 in terms of turbine shaft speed, so the turbo will last a lot better than spinning the stock thing too fast to make your 330..."
And then they all talked about how they'd do that combo for street cars and it worked marvelously, and and their customers all raved how they were geniuses but how they couldn't in rally cars that would be in either British Rally Championship or any International competition and how that was so frustrating because by that time Misterbitchy Evo had arrived and they did things on the Group N car that was essentially perfect. Stock turbo: perfect (and quick release stock), ideal gear ratios (compare Evo 4-9 ratios to the Borg Warner T5 with the 2.95 gearset---mere rounding differences except 5th) and stock final drive in around 4.37 or so) and the results speak clearly how well that Misterbitchy worked: worldwide dominance for years in Group N while Ford disappeared.

So while the subject is turbo, it really should be about the whole combination of END USE for turbo, power, gear ratios and final drive..
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Old 01-04-2016, 12:40 PM   #24
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If 64 is good, than 76 is more better.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:32 PM   #25
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Blooming great bit of Cossie history there John - I tip my hat to you for that! Dad was brought up watching rallycross in the 70's and 80's himself, my late grandfather being a big fan of it. Group B and WTCC was the bees knees to him essentially.. You don't get the same stuff nowadays.

I think my best bet would be the Cossie .48 housing, .55/.60 compressor. I am not after 'huge power', just a better-than-standard usable powerband, such as yourself John and Lord_Athlon recommend. Reading Ford forums they recommend the same as what you both do. Good site here regarding what part numbers I require..

http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/appl...compressor.php

http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/appl...ns/turbine.php

What I have read is that "the less amount of blades (6 and 7 blade) gives you more top end/flow rate and the more blades (8 blade) gives you better spool-up/ low and mid range power"... Haven't even started to look at different number of blades, and so on.. All goes over my head some of it.

Most likely with the M90, I'll probably end up with either a H2 or L2, being that the gearbox I have in mind is coming from a 1997 car, so the stronger later type. Final drive well, I'll most likely be using the 1031 axle, but if I find a 1041 with the G80 locker that'll be used instead. Haven't looked up the final drive RE diffs but I will be soon.

A 3" exhaust will accompany the setup however, so plenty of room for it to breathe.

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