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Old 04-20-2021, 02:06 PM   #1
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Default Front sump redblock

What would be entailed in making a B230 a front sump engine? Can the pan be flipped? Can the pick-up be moved? Are there any inherent showstoppers to making that the case?
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Old 04-20-2021, 02:21 PM   #2
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You'd probably need to cut and weld the oil pan depending on where you need the clearance. Not sure what you'd do about the oil pickup though.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:51 PM   #3
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Best bet would probably be to use a b234f block with the belt driven pump.
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Old 04-20-2021, 03:56 PM   #4
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Best bet would probably be to use a b234f block with the belt driven pump.
Yeah - since the B230 oil pump itself pokes down into the sump, not just a pickup tube - it would be a very complicated change to move the pump (and it's int shaft driven gear) forward.

B234 would 'just' involve moving the pickup tube.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:25 PM   #5
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Great input John and Cosby.

This is a good lead for further investigation. I am inquiring about a California BAR workaround for repowering a Toyota, and how to get there in phases IF I don't move out of the state and circumstantially solve the BAR problem. I'd much rather have a red block than a 22re, and then a whiteblock 5 over the redblock. But that can never happen in Cali unless the car is pre-76.

The recent bill to move smog exemption to pre-82 died.
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Old 04-20-2021, 08:33 PM   #6
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Why?. Looks like a lot of work.
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Old 04-20-2021, 08:57 PM   #7
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Great input John and Cosby.

This is a good lead for further investigation. I am inquiring about a California BAR workaround for repowering a Toyota, and how to get there in phases IF I don't move out of the state and circumstantially solve the BAR problem. I'd much rather have a red block than a 22re, and then a whiteblock 5 over the redblock. But that can never happen in Cali unless the car is pre-76.

The recent bill to move smog exemption to pre-82 died.
I think the easier way to move the smog exemption is specifically to drop the visual inspection for old enough cars. If you can get the thing to pass the tailpipe test then that should be good enough, modified or not. In some cases modifications like modern EFI or a motor swap would probably have the engine running cleaner. That or they could demystify the BAR referee process and make it easier to ask questions, maybe set up a forum where we could ask the refs questions and discuss solutions. There are many ways to skin this cat without moving the exemption date forward.

At the same time I also think OBD II cars should have to pass the tailpipe test as the VW scandal (and all the automakers found to be cheating later) has shown it is all too easy to trick a computer into giving a thumbs up and companies have a profit motive to cheat.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:07 PM   #8
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^ Very well put, should just be a tailpipe test. The current situation makes some swaps nearly impossible to pass, while obviously making less emissions.

(Based on my understanding, would be nice if there was more clear guidelines) A whiteblock in a 240 would require you to find an original manual 850t, then swap over everything including the rear mounted distributor, and cut a whole in the firewall. You could try with ME7 but then you have a dozen more headaches.

I garentee my 242 would pass a tailpipe test, but obviously fail visual.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:00 AM   #9
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^ Very well put, should just be a tailpipe test. The current situation makes some swaps nearly impossible to pass, while obviously making less emissions.

(Based on my understanding, would be nice if there was more clear guidelines) A whiteblock in a 240 would require you to find an original manual 850t, then swap over everything including the rear mounted distributor, and cut a whole in the firewall. You could try with ME7 but then you have a dozen more headaches.

I garentee my 242 would pass a tailpipe test, but obviously fail visual.

Unfortunately fwd to rwd swaps are not really passable, let's say you get the drive train out of a s60r though. That would make it okay.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:03 AM   #10
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What's wrong with a 22RE? It's a stoopidly reliable and durable motor.
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Old 04-21-2021, 11:05 AM   #11
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What's wrong with a 22RE? It's a stoopidly reliable and durable motor.
I am kind of wondering the same thing. Parts are just as easy to find, if not more so, than a redblock. The only complaints I've read about are that the timing chain occasionally needs work.
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Old 04-21-2021, 01:59 PM   #12
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also depending on what year the truck is you can just mod the rear sump pan, did a b21ft swap into a hilux years ago and just modded a rear sump pan
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Old 04-21-2021, 03:12 PM   #13
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What's wrong with a 22RE? It's a stoopidly reliable and durable motor.
this.
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Old 04-21-2021, 03:43 PM   #14
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A good running 22r or 22re is significantly faster than a stock b230f. I'm pretty sure my 380k mile 4wd truck is faster to 60mph than my 250k mile 244.

But this is turbobricks, and I'm a fan of engine swaps!
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Old 04-21-2021, 04:15 PM   #15
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TDi swap it, they even make adapters to bolt it to the Toyota trans (ACME adapters).

Bingo - same HP, more torx, better MPG, no smog worries even in CA (I think???), cool diesel clatter, and put the word 'diesel' next to 'Toyota' and the price triples, like magic. Win/win/win/win/win, you're gonna get tired from #WINNING so much.
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Old 04-21-2021, 11:09 PM   #16
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22xx are great truck motors. More tractor-like than even our redblocks.

This is for a RWD Celica. Which actually begs for a whiteblock 5 doesn't it? Keeping the light-weight vibe and sounding glorious doing it.

Even the Celica crowd take the r block out and replace it with other fours. Permissible Kali swaps are very few that you that could get through the BAR. UZ,JZ, 1G... Ford 2.3 has a front sump option...

It is nice to know Volvo 240 parts (I have bunches) are upgrade parts in the Celica circles.
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Old 04-22-2021, 12:50 AM   #17
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If its a Celica, why not use one of the other rwd toyota engines? Or maybe some other japanese car engine? Though then again, prices are kinda crazy right now.

A ka24de could probably be gotten for a reasonable price. They're still truck engines, but much less so than a 22r or a b230. They're already front sump if its from a 240sx, hardbody's were mid-rear sump. They also have decently strong transmissions.

Though they're still more expensive than a redblock, but probably not if you want to use a stronger transmission than an m46/m47
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Old 04-22-2021, 12:57 AM   #18
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Slk 230 kompressor. Sumps in the right spot iirc, can get it manual, you could ref it for sure. And they are pretty cheap and modern
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:16 AM   #19
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TDi swap it, they even make adapters to bolt it to the Toyota trans (ACME adapters).

Bingo - same HP, more torx, better MPG, no smog worries even in CA (I think???), cool diesel clatter, and put the word 'diesel' next to 'Toyota' and the price triples, like magic. Win/win/win/win/win, you're gonna get tired from #WINNING so much.
I've seen Josh's (Yoshifab) wagon with the hood up. Those are tiny peanuts of an engine. That is a cool idea. I remember him saying he thought about driving it down to the ref with a plywood adapter he used just to rough everything in, but decided to go all the way. Went to the ref, popped the hood, and no further looking over the car; the ref did a 2-second look into the bay and signed it off.
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:22 AM   #20
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A good running 22r or 22re is significantly faster than a stock b230f. I'm pretty sure my 380k mile 4wd truck is faster to 60mph than my 250k mile 244.

But this is turbobricks, and I'm a fan of engine swaps!
I've only been in two 22r powered vehicles and respected the powerplant, but not what I'd want to drive for a car by any means. They both autos?

I did call LCEngineering and 22rePerformance. LCEngineering was unimpressive. Jim at 22REPerformance was very familiar with long rod builds and getting the R/S ratio north toward 1.9 (vs 1.6). That would do well toward untractorizing the 22r.

EDIT: You seen any on the rally circuit?

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Old 04-23-2021, 09:30 AM   #21
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I think the easier way to move the smog exemption is specifically to drop the visual inspection for old enough cars. If you can get the thing to pass the tailpipe test then that should be good enough, modified or not. In some cases modifications like modern EFI or a motor swap would probably have the engine running cleaner. That or they could demystify the BAR referee process and make it easier to ask questions, maybe set up a forum where we could ask the refs questions and discuss solutions. There are many ways to skin this cat without moving the exemption date forward.

At the same time I also think OBD II cars should have to pass the tailpipe test as the VW scandal (and all the automakers found to be cheating later) has shown it is all too easy to trick a computer into giving a thumbs up and companies have a profit motive to cheat.
These are excellent recommendations. I have often said the visual is just kissing the ring, pay to play. But a forum where builders could engage in discussion with the refs so that the spirit of the statute can be met without much BS. I just spent the day at the San Marcos (North San Diego County) DMV to get a junk slip for my stripped wagon. They gave me a number and said they would text me 2 times and then I could come into the building. She said they were about an hour out. Never texted me! I had to go through two rounds of waiting. I brought a book, so it wasn't a loss, or really unexpected. They just lack the human element down there. Being able to communicate would breathe an element of rapport into the process.
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:46 AM   #22
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I've seen Josh's (Yoshifab) wagon with the hood up. Those are tiny peanuts of an engine. That is a cool idea. I remember him saying he thought about driving it down to the ref with a plywood adapter he used just to rough everything in, but decided to go all the way. Went to the ref, popped the hood, and no further looking over the car; the ref did a 2-second look into the bay and signed it off.
It's probably not forward sump enough, but since the same basic engine family is used in some longitudinal cars, you can get a sump with some extra clearance at the back. Look for an AWM or BHW oil pan (Passat 1.8T and TDi).



I suppose you could get the whole BHW motor, but I think the ALH motor is better. The PD motors seem to have cam wear issues with the cam driven injectors.
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Old 04-24-2021, 02:11 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by jmc0369 View Post
I've seen Josh's (Yoshifab) wagon with the hood up. Those are tiny peanuts of an engine. That is a cool idea. I remember him saying he thought about driving it down to the ref with a plywood adapter he used just to rough everything in, but decided to go all the way. Went to the ref, popped the hood, and no further looking over the car; the ref did a 2-second look into the bay and signed it off.
He went to the DMV to do that. You have to go to a actual ref now for diesel swaps. Good luck, you need everything out of the donor car basically
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Old 05-02-2021, 06:20 PM   #24
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The 360 sump is most likely the best bet. The have the engine sat in front of the cross member
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Old 05-02-2021, 07:57 PM   #25
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The 360 sump is most likely the best bet. The have the engine sat in front of the cross member
Was that a b234 as well? Hmm, are the Sabb b234's the same block?
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