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Old 04-28-2021, 04:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Free length? Whatever happened to using a valve spring pressure tester?
Free length is a reasonable way to check that's pretty simple and only requires a ruler or a pair of calipers.

Since the steel wire doesn't get stiffer or softer as it gets older (Young's modulus stays the same). The free length slowly decreases in height, which decreases the spring force at a given installed height.

How many people have a valve spring testing tool and get it calibrated regularly?
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Old 04-28-2021, 06:48 PM   #52
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There was an awesome article in Super Stock and Drag Racing Magazine from about 20 years ago that extolled the virtues of beehive springs in which David Vizard runs a small Chevy to like 8200 rpm or something on a single spring. He includes some maths and stuff and I've never used straight springs since.

And this is from 20 years ago.
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:35 PM   #53
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David Vizard can help you build all kinds of good engines.
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:47 PM   #54
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David Vizard can help you build all kinds of good engines.
He's a smart guy, but Erland Cox isn't the biggest fan of some of his theories....
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by shoestring View Post
There was an awesome article in Super Stock and Drag Racing Magazine from about 20 years ago that extolled the virtues of beehive springs in which David Vizard runs a small Chevy to like 8200 rpm or something on a single spring. He includes some maths and stuff and I've never used straight springs since.

And this is from 20 years ago.
They're really great, their downside is that they are limited on diameter/length/rate.... and the cost.
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Old 04-28-2021, 07:58 PM   #56
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I recently had the Yoshifab beehive springs installed on a 531 head. When I first had the head built I went for the high seat pressure dual Isky springs. I wanted to build an 8500rpm engine. Then I woke up and realized I needed something different. The group buy happened at just the right time. Looking forward to trying out the head in the not to distant future.
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Old 04-28-2021, 09:26 PM   #57
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I've been looking around for OE style beehive springs that will work, and I'm finding that it's difficult finding a spring that will not bind in our redblocks.
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Old 04-29-2021, 06:29 AM   #58
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He's a smart guy, but Erland Cox isn't the biggest fan of some of his theories....
I've read this. Both guys have better track records than I do, though, so I like to absorb what I can.
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Old 04-29-2021, 09:50 AM   #59
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I've read this. Both guys have better track records than I do, though, so I like to absorb what I can.
Exactly. I’m the same way.
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Old 04-29-2021, 09:52 AM   #60
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I've been looking around for OE style beehive springs that will work, and I'm finding that it's difficult finding a spring that will not bind in our redblocks.
Yep. The installed height is pretty low, and there are some large cams that are used.
You can change installed height with different retainers as well, to an extent.
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:45 AM   #61
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Yep. The installed height is pretty low, and there are some large cams that are used.
You can change installed height with different retainers as well, to an extent.
Makes sense. Well, I should get my spring compressor in today, so I can check what my stockers look like, and figure out what size they are.

At this point, if they need replaced, I might just go for the BTR springs and Raptor retainers. Pretty similar in price to the Volvo 29mm service kit, but they allow for ample headroom for a turbo or a larger cam in the future.
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Old 04-29-2021, 08:27 PM   #62
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I got the opportunity to pull a valve spring. They are the 25.9mm springs as hiperfauto guessed. I also took a measurement of the free height, which was 43.80mm. From factory, they are supposed to be 44.50mm.

What do you guys think? For 250-300k miles it's not near as bad as I thought. I don't know what it means for a valve spring's height to be .7mm under spec. Is it time to change them out?
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:37 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Yep. The installed height is pretty low, and there are some large cams that are used.
You can change installed height with different retainers as well, to an extent.
culberro, I found an old thread which talked about the VS1632 Ford 2v 4.6 springs used in the 16v heads. Looking over the specs, they might work as an inexpensive replacement for my springs?
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Old 04-30-2021, 08:07 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by OldCarNewTricks View Post
culberro, I found an old thread which talked about the VS1632 Ford 2v 4.6 springs used in the 16v heads. Looking over the specs, they might work as an inexpensive replacement for my springs?
Doesn't look like they're available any more, or at least for the time being. The Sealed Power number on the 32v is VS1664, same with that. I also looked at CompCams 909 as a kind of straight replacement, it's close but I'm not in love with it. You could look at Swedish sites to see what you might be able to get from them?

Last edited by shoestring; 04-30-2021 at 08:26 AM..
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Old 04-30-2021, 09:13 AM   #65
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Doesn't look like they're available any more, or at least for the time being. The Sealed Power number on the 32v is VS1664, same with that. I also looked at CompCams 909 as a kind of straight replacement, it's close but I'm not in love with it. You could look at Swedish sites to see what you might be able to get from them?
I wonder what's made them unavailable, at least for the 2v. Perhaps low demand. Anyway, Melling makes the 2v style VS1268, and they are only $1.97 per on RockAuto. They're supposedly 26mm all the way through with specs that might handle everything just fine? Could be wrong, though.
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Old 04-30-2021, 09:51 AM   #66
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Sort of related question, can old valve springs be tested in any way? If they have the same measured rates as they should have new, could they be OK to reuse?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
Free length? Whatever happened to using a valve spring pressure tester?
Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
Free length is a reasonable way to check that's pretty simple and only requires a ruler or a pair of calipers.

Since the steel wire doesn't get stiffer or softer as it gets older (Young's modulus stays the same). The free length slowly decreases in height, which decreases the spring force at a given installed height.

How many people have a valve spring testing tool and get it calibrated regularly?
Almost every engine machine shop (every one I have been in) has a spring checker. The important thing is it measures height and pressure.
Yes, a free height check is good, and you can shim old springs until you get close to bind.
A spring change mid-season is very popular in "crate motor" classes in circle-track racing.

Also, the earlier assumption the bigger springs are stiffer needs to be clarified:
For a given wire diameter and coil count, a larger spring diameter will give a softer spring. To make the bigger springs stiffer they need bigger wire or fewer coils.
The smaller Volvo B21/23/230 springs that I have tested were almost identical in rate when compared to the big Volvo B valve springs, and were lighter, with a lighter retainer, so I use those.

I have been interested in beehives for a long time but never pulled the trigger.
I had the same questions about cost as posted earlier in this thread.
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:16 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Almost every engine machine shop (every one I have been in) has a spring checker. The important thing is it measures height and pressure.
Yes, a free height check is good, and you can shim old springs until you get close to bind.
A spring change mid-season is very popular in "crate motor" classes in circle-track racing.

Also, the earlier assumption the bigger springs are stiffer needs to be clarified:
For a given wire diameter and coil count, a larger spring diameter will give a softer spring. To make the bigger springs stiffer they need bigger wire or fewer coils.
The smaller Volvo B21/23/230 springs that I have tested were almost identical in rate when compared to the big Volvo B valve springs, and were lighter, with a lighter retainer, so I use those.

I have been interested in beehives for a long time but never pulled the trigger.
I had the same questions about cost as posted earlier in this thread.
Do circle racers really put that much wear on valve springs in such short time?? That's incredible.

Comp makes spring shims in various sizes. They have 1.250 OD, .030" shim that would bring my springs back to the factory spec. (P/N 4742-16) $12 for the set of 16.

Do shims just sit in between the retainer and spring, or on top of the seat?
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Old 04-30-2021, 11:30 AM   #68
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Do circle racers really put that much wear on valve springs in such short time?? That's incredible.

Comp makes spring shims in various sizes. They have 1.250 OD, .030" shim that would bring my springs back to the factory spec. (P/N 4742-16) $12 for the set of 16.

Do shims just sit in between the retainer and spring, or on top of the seat?
Shims go under the spring.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:01 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by OldCarNewTricks View Post
culberro, I found an old thread which talked about the VS1632 Ford 2v 4.6 springs used in the 16v heads. Looking over the specs, they might work as an inexpensive replacement for my springs?

Melling makes a near direct replacement to the VS1632.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...BWjgnAxbj%2BJV

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoestring View Post
Doesn't look like they're available any more, or at least for the time being. The Sealed Power number on the 32v is VS1664, same with that. I also looked at CompCams 909 as a kind of straight replacement, it's close but I'm not in love with it. You could look at Swedish sites to see what you might be able to get from them?

Of note, the Sealed Power (or the Melling) springs are not a beehive. I'm not sure where/when they got labeled that. But I've had numerous people mention this to me.
The PAC "Beehives" that commonly get used on 8vs are the least beehive spring I've ever seen.

I'll come back and edit this post with some spring force values for stock and the Melling/Sealed Power springs. I just have to find them.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:41 PM   #70
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@culberro I see some springs are listed as beehive, and some as conical. Can you shed light on what the difference might be, beyond just the shape?

The only place I ever found info on the stock Ford spring was some Mustang forum that listed it at 65lbs@1.440", rate 250.
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Old 04-30-2021, 01:55 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by shoestring View Post
@culberro I see some springs are listed as beehive, and some as conical. Can you shed light on what the difference might be, beyond just the shape?

The only place I ever found info on the stock Ford spring was some Mustang forum that listed it at 65lbs@1.440", rate 250.
Beehive and conical springs accomplish the same thing: increasing spring frequency as the spring is compressed and an increasing spring rate, while offering a lighter package (specifically retainer).
Beehives are finicky to install into an application because they have a taller block/bind height than a comparable conventional spring for a given diameter/installed height/seat force.
Conical springs by design allow for a shorter block/bind height since the wire can nest inside the previous coils, are lighter than a comparable beehive, and they can use a smaller retainer than a comparable beehive.

Edit: The conical spring is just the next "evolution" of single valve spring. I say "evolution" because they've been in use since the early 1900s.

Last edited by culberro; 04-30-2021 at 02:04 PM..
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Old 04-30-2021, 02:21 PM   #72
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Conical springs by design allow for a shorter block/bind height since the wire can nest inside the previous coils, are lighter than a comparable beehive, and they can use a smaller retainer than a comparable beehive.
This is what I was looking for.
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Old 04-30-2021, 02:57 PM   #73
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I'm thinking it's not worth the upgraded springs at this time. I don't need them. If the 4.6 2v springs are an acceptable OE replacement, that may be the best all around option. Otherwise, I think shims to restore free height may be my best bet. Either will be plenty for my modest A cam.

RockAuto has specs listed underneath the VS1632. Their phrasing is a bit different I think.
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Old 04-30-2021, 03:02 PM   #74
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I'm thinking it's not worth the upgraded springs at this time. I don't need them. If the 4.6 2v springs are an acceptable OE replacement, that may be the best all around option. Otherwise, I think shims to restore free height may be my best bet. Either will be plenty for my modest A cam.
Exactly. No ROI with special springs. A total waste of your money.
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Old 04-30-2021, 03:39 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by OldCarNewTricks View Post
I'm thinking it's not worth the upgraded springs at this time. I don't need them. If the 4.6 2v springs are an acceptable OE replacement, that may be the best all around option. Otherwise, I think shims to restore free height may be my best bet. Either will be plenty for my modest A cam.

RockAuto has specs listed underneath the VS1632. Their phrasing is a bit different I think.
Just make sure that whatever springs you choose have sufficient clearance at full lift.
The beehive 8v setup is only good enough for a mild cam upgrade @ ~12.5mm of lift.

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Exactly. No ROI with special springs. A total waste of your money.
Truly this. On a mild cam (IPD or anything around 12mm of lift), good stock springs can handle around 7k rpm or slightly more. Easy improvement over stock: shim the springs so they only have 40 thou of bind clearance.
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