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Old 11-10-2020, 09:20 PM   #1
Nickagriffin
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Default Will I kill myself if I don't upgrade my brakes?

All jokes aside, I have been working the clapped out stock brakes on my 240+T a little too hard. I've never had any serious brake fade, but the stories scare me.

My original plan was to save up for a while while on stock brakes and then upgrade to RX7 or Cadillac calipers in the front. Do you guys think if I get new stock rotors, decent metallic pads, and DOT4 fluid it will be enough for now? I'm probably making about 200hp and use the car mostly for spirited driving but plan on autoX in the future.

I've been looking into better pads and rotors with the stock system (greenstuff) but damn they are expensive, ideally I'd like to spend under $100 until I get the funds for a big brake kit.
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Old 11-10-2020, 09:23 PM   #2
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Stock brakes in good condition are fine for 200 hp.
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Old 11-10-2020, 10:21 PM   #3
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Agreed! I’ve raced on Volvo pads and they’re decent, but don’t last long in a racing environment. On the street, they’re fine.
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Old 11-10-2020, 10:24 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by klr142 View Post
Agreed! I’ve raced on Volvo pads and they’re decent, but don’t last long in a racing environment. On the street, they’re fine.
Don't last long meaning brake fade or short lifespan?
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Old 11-10-2020, 10:30 PM   #5
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Neither will happen on the street unless you are a total maniac. Autocrosses are too short for brake fade, and you would have to do it all the time to shorten the life of the pads.
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Old 11-10-2020, 11:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Nickagriffin View Post
Don't last long meaning brake fade or short lifespan?
No fade with ducting in our endurance racing situation, just only 7-14 hours before the pads are gone depending on the axle and race track in our use. Put in some good DOT4 fluid and call it good. We use ATE Typ200 as it has a higher boiling point without being too crazy like the race spec 600 degree stuff. This is the type of use I’m referring to:

https://youtu.be/KSGnSB7deC0

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Neither will happen on the street unless you are a total maniac. Autocrosses are too short for brake fade, and you would have to do it all the time to shorten the life of the pads.
Agreed.
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Old 11-11-2020, 12:00 AM   #7
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No fade with ducting in our endurance racing situation, just only 7-14 hours before the pads are gone depending on the axle and race track in our use. Put in some good DOT4 fluid and call it good. We use ATE Typ200 as it has a higher boiling point without being too crazy like the race spec 600 degree stuff. This is the type of use I’m referring to:

https://youtu.be/KSGnSB7deC0

Agreed.
Good to know! I'll probably end up taking my brick out at VIR at some point since I work there sometimes, so it's nice knowing that the stock calipers can hold their own during track use.
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Old 11-11-2020, 12:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickagriffin View Post
All jokes aside, I have been working the clapped out stock brakes on my 240+T a little too hard. I've never had any serious brake fade, but the stories scare me.

My original plan was to save up for a while while on stock brakes and then upgrade to RX7 or Cadillac calipers in the front. Do you guys think if I get new stock rotors, decent metallic pads, and DOT4 fluid it will be enough for now? I'm probably making about 200hp and use the car mostly for spirited driving but plan on autoX in the future.

I've been looking into better pads and rotors with the stock system (greenstuff) but damn they are expensive, ideally I'd like to spend under $100 until I get the funds for a big brake kit.
rx7 upgrade was designed to eliminate sprung weight and make the system more simple

it's pretty much the same stopping power


quit driving like a moron and you'll be fine on stock stuff
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Old 11-11-2020, 12:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
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quit driving like a moron and you'll be fine on stock stuff
What if I dont wanna quit driving like a moron?

Good to know about the RX7 junk tho, heard they shed heat better but I guess Cadillac or nothing?
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Old 11-11-2020, 12:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickagriffin View Post
What if I dont wanna quit driving like a moron?
start collecting cans and upgrade your stopping power

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Originally Posted by Nickagriffin View Post
What if I dont wanna quit driving like a moron?

Good to know about the RX7 junk tho, heard they shed heat better but I guess Cadillac or nothing?
big brakes get expensive but it's worth it
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Old 11-11-2020, 12:38 AM   #11
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I have R brakes on my 79 242, the brakes have way more hp than the motor does. And I have to have huge rims on the car. R brakes are the easiest upgrade, and way more braking than you need. It was a totally useless mod, but I was going to LS swap the car, so that is why they are on there.

The cheapest way to do it is STS brackets, R calipers, Powerstop rotor and pad kit for a 2006 S60R, Mustang GT master cylinder I forget the year but can tell ya tomorrow if you care, a couple plugs for the distribution block, and a length of brake line with some extra fittings for the stuff that will be jammed up. Plus a set of 17" or bigger rims. Plan on $2000 and you will be ok, have some change left over if you do it yourself.

Better to just make sure the factory setup is %100. Remember your braking is only as good as your tires. Big brakes can lock up the stock tires fast, then you are sliding into whatever is in front of you.
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Old 11-11-2020, 01:48 AM   #12
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Remember your braking is only as good as your tires. Big brakes can lock up the stock tires fast, then you are sliding into whatever is in front of you.
YES!!!
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:02 AM   #13
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Stock brakes, good pads, good fluid, good tires. The braking systems in these cars are good if you take care of them. Autocross doesn't load the brakes very seriously, nor does spirited street driving (unless you're doing 90->30 repeatedly downhill on a mountain pass)
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:14 AM   #14
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In 1991 I bought all new brakes for the V8 Wagon [350+HP] from Volvo. Rotors [vented front],pads, and calipers. Cross drilled all the rotors [120 holes per rotor]. They are still on the car today 275k miles later, rear pads will need to be changed soon.
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Old 11-11-2020, 06:42 AM   #15
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When updating front brakes remember also update rear brakes. If piston and disk diameters are off-balance, your front wheels are tap-dancing at the verge of locking and rear wheels are barely doing nothing. And no, pressure regulator will not help in this case.
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Old 11-11-2020, 11:11 AM   #16
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Stock brakes, good pads, good fluid, good tires. The braking systems in these cars are good if you take care of them. Autocross doesn't load the brakes very seriously, nor does spirited street driving (unless you're doing 90->30 repeatedly downhill on a mountain pass)
This. I haven't had any problems with OE pads and good fluid. My brakes will start smoking before they fade now.
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Old 11-11-2020, 11:17 AM   #17
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^+1. Old fluid was cooking almost instantly on the track, but with fresh fluid the stock brakes did surprisingly well. Braided lines also made the pedal feel much better than the old lines.
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Old 11-11-2020, 11:58 AM   #18
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I got 5l of Pentosin LV brake fluid from Rock auto for $30 when I changed my brake octopus, it's good for >509F. Never had a problem with this fluid at autocross or time trials at the track.
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Old 11-11-2020, 01:54 PM   #19
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Alright thanks for all the info guys, I'll probably just get new metallic pads, new rotors, and flush with some good DOT4 fluid. Might do braided lines, greenstuff pads, and some ducting if I am still working the brakes a little too much.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:06 PM   #20
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The stock 240 brakes are not lacking in power, they are lacking in heat management. The RX7 calipers being aluminum will help with the heat aspect. Big brake kits help my using components that don't get as hot, or can handle being at higher temps better.

Good pads and good fluid will get you a ways with the stock calipers. If you're doing track days, and are at a track that uses the brakes, expect the pads to wear down to the metal after a few hours of track time (just like KLR142 mentioned). Brake pads work pretty well when it's metal on metal, they just get really hot and boil the fluid at the least opportune time.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:36 PM   #21
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Alright thanks for all the info guys, I'll probably just get new metallic pads
You're welcome! Be careful of the pads you purchase. The OE Volvo pads are good, I can't comment on other brands other than the PBR Ulimates/Ceramics that used to be good many years ago, are now(if even available), NOT good for track use and deposited pad material onto my new rotors years ago.

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Good pads and good fluid will get you a ways with the stock calipers. If you're doing track days, and are at a track that uses the brakes, expect the pads to wear down to the metal after a few hours of track time (just like KLR142 mentioned). Brake pads work pretty well when it's metal on metal, they just get really hot and boil the fluid at the least opportune time.
"Few" being a relative term. If you do a couple track days a year and less than 10k miles a year, they might last you a year. Who really knows, it's hard to say how everyone's brake wear will be because everyone drives differently. We'd get multiple YEARS out of the rotors, but have to change pads every weekend. Towards the end with the higher power levels, the rear pads would wear through in 6-8 hours depending on the track. Fronts were still good for probably 8-12 hours.
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Old 11-11-2020, 02:41 PM   #22
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We would get 20+ hours out of a set of frt pads at full effort, a few more hours than that out of the rears. Stock '91 245 brake parts, even cheap rotors. Never came close to running out of pad during a race weekend. Multiple class wins, lots of top 5s, so yes, we pushed. We did, however, take the backing plates off. Hawk Blue 9012 compound. I'm led to believe there are even better choices than this but have yet to try them.
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Old 11-11-2020, 03:07 PM   #23
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Best read today!
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Old 11-11-2020, 05:21 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by klr142 View Post
"Few" being a relative term. If you do a couple track days a year and less than 10k miles a year, they might last you a year. Who really knows, it's hard to say how everyone's brake wear will be because everyone drives differently. We'd get multiple YEARS out of the rotors, but have to change pads every weekend. Towards the end with the higher power levels, the rear pads would wear through in 6-8 hours depending on the track. Fronts were still good for probably 8-12 hours.
Very true.
At ORP the front pads made it to about 3pm before they went metal on metal. So that's about 4.5-5hrs of track time. PBR ceramic pads, 3000lb turbo 242 doing 2:0X lap times, running CCW. My not so sophisticated lap timing app showed a few 1:5x times, but I'm not sure I trust it that much.
The brakes let me know at the bottom of Valkyrie Hill when slowing down from 120+. I passed a few cars when they turned in, and was able to use the outside of the turn to stay out of the grass.
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Old 11-11-2020, 06:07 PM   #25
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Yeehaw! Lol. Those PBR Ceramics are crap these days. I wonder how the Volvo pads compare if you had done a back to back comparison.

I will say that you can still stop the car when you just have backing plates for pads, but like you said, the fluid will likely boil and your stopping distances do increase.

This was with no rear pad material left and pumping the brakes to build back up pressure. Still some of my fastest laps of the weekend back in June at the Ridge Motorsports Park!
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