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Old 08-10-2022, 09:47 AM   #1
red740t
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Default valve springs

looking at low cost valve springs to use in a 531 head with an IPD turbo cam. This is for my challenge car so I need to keep the costs down. What I have come up with ate a set of Comp Cams springs made for a domestic V8. Just wondering if anyone has used these or something similar. my measurments say they will work but just looking for verification. Thanks
[edit]
https://www.compcams.com/single-oute...1-073-i-d.html

Last edited by red740t; 08-10-2022 at 09:54 AM..
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:00 AM   #2
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A few reasons why I wouldn’t use those springs.
1. Installed force is 115lbs at 38mm installed height, that’s a bit much.
2. The OD is too big, It’s 36.5mm.

The cheap option for years has been VW air-cooled valve springs. They sort of work using the large diameter stock springs seats and retainers.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:02 AM   #3
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Has anyone tried these?
https://www.tascaparts.com/oem-parts...tainers-271793
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:17 AM   #4
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I used to use the Ford 4V 4.6 springs out of the 02-03(?) Cobra in conjunction with the 6.2 Raptor spring retainers but the springs have become cost prohibitive. If I felt I needed an upgrade from that I would use the Brian Tooley drop-in upgrade springs for that same application. The installed height is right on the money but you do have to open up the top coil of the spring to fit the retainer. It's not much, like 0.020" or so. With a Dremel and a sand roll I could do a set of 8 in about 45 min, being really careful.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:29 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
A few reasons why I wouldn’t use those springs.
1. Installed force is 115lbs at 38mm installed height, that’s a bit much.
2. The OD is too big, It’s 36.5mm.

The cheap option for years has been VW air-cooled valve springs. They sort of work using the large diameter stock springs seats and retainers.
I thought the same thing about the seat pressure but figured they would work. I'll look at some VW springs. thanks
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Old 08-10-2022, 11:09 AM   #6
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The 4.6 springs are a good option as well.

If you’re using the VW springs, the single springs fit a whole lot easier.
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Old 08-10-2022, 12:46 PM   #7
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Why not use the large diameter stock Volvo springs? When I had my 405 head done the shop told me he shimmed them so I could use a 6800 rpm redline and it does go to 7k if I am not careful. They weren't real expensive.
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Old 08-10-2022, 01:01 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by dl242gt View Post
Why not use the large diameter stock Volvo springs? When I had my 405 head done the shop told me he shimmed them so I could use a 6800 rpm redline and it does go to 7k if I am not careful. They weren't real expensive.
I need to do a comparison on the large vs small OEM springs at Installed height, bind height, and like 12mm of lift.

Maybe I'll do that this evening.

All of the stock volvo springs will work in the 6500-6800 range with a mild cam, IF they are shimmed accordingly.
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Old 08-10-2022, 01:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Why not use the large diameter stock Volvo springs? When I had my 405 head done the shop told me he shimmed them so I could use a 6800 rpm redline and it does go to 7k if I am not careful. They weren't real expensive.
Biggest issue is 30+ PSI pushing on the back side.
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Old 08-10-2022, 01:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red740t View Post
Biggest issue is 30+ PSI pushing on the back side.
I'm using stock springs at close to 25psi charge pressure and 6700 rpm

The exhaust pressure is probably unfathomably high on the GTX2860 as well.

Yes there will be pressure pushing on the backside of the valve (30-50psi), but the pressure in the combustion chamber (even before the exhaust valve opens) is substantially higher. Then the intake opens and you have a very minor pressure difference. Enough to say that it probably doesn't even matter.

Last edited by culberro; 08-10-2022 at 01:40 PM..
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Old 08-10-2022, 01:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
I need to do a comparison on the large vs small OEM springs at Installed height, bind height, and like 12mm of lift.

Maybe I'll do that this evening.

All of the stock volvo springs will work in the 6500-6800 range with a mild cam, IF they are shimmed accordingly.
This. Greg Ervin's 740 was running stock valves and springs with the ports slightly cleaned up. It pulled hard all the way to 6,500 RPM. Maybe, higher. I was always too busy driving to pay attention to the tach.
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Old 08-10-2022, 04:27 PM   #12
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There is the advantage of going beehive's for stability at higher RPM as well though, just throwing it out there.

Dunno what the springs are in my SPM head, but I'm going to swap them out with known parts when I put in valves that are the proper length. Curious what turns up here, but I will likely go with something from Yoshifab, unless one of my sources has something comparable for cheap.

Robert - please post up the specs when you get a chance to measure. ID/OD/spring rate, all that jazz.
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Old 08-10-2022, 04:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsellstr View Post
There is the advantage of going beehive's for stability at higher RPM as well though, just throwing it out there.

Dunno what the springs are in my SPM head, but I'm going to swap them out with known parts when I put in valves that are the proper length. Curious what turns up here, but I will likely go with something from Yoshifab, unless one of my sources has something comparable for cheap.

Robert - please post up the specs when you get a chance to measure. ID/OD/spring rate, all that jazz.
If you're interested in some beehives, I can set you up with some BTR beehives and Ferrea retainers. It's going to cost a bit more than the kit from Yoshifab, the retainers from Ferrea are currently $25/ea.

I also have some single and dual valve spring kits that are very comparable to the KL Racing ones, and they're a bit cheaper and have lighter retainers than what KL Racing offers.

I'll measure up the springs here in a bit.
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Old 08-10-2022, 04:50 PM   #14
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The greenbook has valve spring specs.

http://hiperformanceautoservice.com/...pringSpecs.jpg
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Old 08-10-2022, 05:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by culberro View Post
I need to do a comparison on the large vs small OEM springs at Installed height, bind height, and like 12mm of lift.

Maybe I'll do that this evening.

All of the stock volvo springs will work in the 6500-6800 range with a mild cam, IF they are shimmed accordingly.
The work was done by D&F Performance, Berlin, NJ. I trust them when he told me I
could rev them that high. That would be interesting to see how the stock biggie springs
spec is. I'm using them with a V15 so a mild cam as you suggest.
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Old 08-10-2022, 05:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiperfauto View Post
The greenbook has valve spring specs.

http://hiperformanceautoservice.com/...pringSpecs.jpg
I thought so, thanks for posting those up.

I'm curious to see how soft the high mileage ones I have are
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Old 08-10-2022, 05:14 PM   #17
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I can tell you that with high mileage at about 275k miles the Type 1 spring on intake no.2 floated somewhere around 6800 and the keepers flew out, retainer cracked broke into pieces. Good times. It made me put the 405 head on which was a very enjoyable upgrade.
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Old 08-11-2022, 01:40 AM   #18
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OK, so I did some spring measuring, and compiled some notes from all the spring sets I've measured.

You will find the spring force at installed height (38mm/1.5in), force at bind and bind height, max lift (bind height +1mm), spring rate, and spring force at 12mm lift using a 38mm installed height. Now you can move the spring forces around with spring shims and playing with the installed height.

Stock small diameter spring: 55-60lbs @ 38mm, Coil Bind: 200-210lb @ 24.8mm, max lift ~12.2mm. Rate: ~265lb/in. 185lbs @ 12mm lift
Retainer/spring mass: 18g, 40g

Stock MID diameter spring, OD 29mm: 70lb @ 38mm, Coil Bind: 200lb @ 24.5mm, max lift ~12.5mm. Rate: ~243lbs/in. 185lbs @ 12mm lift.
Retainer/spring mass: 19g, 48g

Old RSI(?) single spring and Large dia OEM retainer: 135lb at 38mm, Coil Bind: 280lb @ 22.6mm, max lift ~14.4mm. Rate: ~240lb/in. 250lbs @ 12mm lift
Retainer/spring mass: 21.4g, 48.8g

Single Culberro Spring: 110lb @ 38mm, Coil Bind: 230@21.3mm, max lift ~ 15.5mm. Rate: ~210lb/in. 210lb @ 12mm lift
Retainer/Spring mass: 19g, 46.8g

Yoshifab Beehive: 108lb @38mm, Coil Bind: 240@24mm, max lift ~13mm. Rate: 240lb/in. 220lbs @ 12mm lift.

Erland Cox Dual Springs: 100lbs @ 38mm, 275lbs @ 16mm lift (bind is 19mm), Rate: 275lb/in. 230lbs @ 12mm lift

BTR SP008: 70lb @ 38mm, Coil Bind: 275lb @ 22.1mm, max lift 14.9mm, rate 330lb/in. 225lbs @ 12mm lift.
Spring mass: 38.6g
For BTR SP008 use Ferrea retainer #E12014, will need to find lower spring seat or use small diameter Volvo spring seat with excessive play.

I'll weigh some retainers and add their weights later on. If anyone has the weight of the Yoshifab retainer, that would be great!

Last edited by culberro; 08-11-2022 at 11:24 AM..
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Old 08-11-2022, 02:16 PM   #19
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I think I'm just gonna grab a set of the Engle VW valve springs and send it. I can get a set of the single springs for under $50 shipped and my buddy that builds air cooled VWs said he loves them.
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Old 08-11-2022, 02:25 PM   #20
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Those will probably be fine. Make sure you get retainers as well. The VW springs come in a few different diameters.
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Old 08-11-2022, 02:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Those will probably be fine. Make sure you get retainers as well. The VW springs come in a few different diameters.
will the VW retainers work with the volvo keepers?
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Old 08-11-2022, 02:40 PM   #22
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will the VW retainers work with the volvo keepers?
Yeah, the keepers are the same. I'd recommend something like the SCAT hi-rev keepers though. They actually grip the valve a bit and that helps to reduce the risk of a keeper jumping out.
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:04 PM   #23
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Thank you for checking those springs. That great information will really help dial in the rev range and lift you want your engine to have. After seeing that info I'm not sure I want to run the beehive springs I bought. The springs would be for use with a V16T cam. I guess it's worth trying since they are installed on the head.
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Old 08-12-2022, 10:11 AM   #24
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You know I appreciate the facts.
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Old 08-12-2022, 12:18 PM   #25
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You know I appreciate the facts.
I'll make a shared g-doc for the info, and update it as I measure more springs.
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