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Old 03-17-2021, 08:32 PM   #226
DavePolyakov
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These are my angles right now. The trans is at its max height and the smallest angle I can get out of it is 8 degrees. The CSB is lowered quite a lot. Is angling the diff upward dangerous? It drives pretty crappy as is. The adjustable torque rods are a factor but it's pretty bad.
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Originally Posted by Harlard View Post
Get a real angle finder, take the rear driveshaft out, set the car on stands so the suspension is loaded and level. Put the angle finder on the pinion flange and on the front driveshaft. Adjust until they are within 1 degree of parallel, with the pinion pointing down if anything.

Last edited by DavePolyakov; 03-18-2021 at 06:38 PM..
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Old 03-19-2021, 12:57 PM   #227
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Am I understanding this right.... your T5 gearbox output is at 8* ?

When I put the Pro Touring style suspension in my 70 Malibu 12 years ago, with adjustable rear suspension and 1 pc. drive shaft, the only way I could get the angles correct at the transmission exit was to serious space UP the tailshaft of my trans..... my GOD I think I ended up with almost 1.5 inches of steel beneath it. My autotragic in the Malibu was fractions away from the tunnel, and I could not go any higher.

All of the discussions in that ancient time, was that for lowered vehicles we will nearly always encounter this issue. I did end up with proper angles and no nasty vibes.... but I almost had to start pounding the tunnel steel to get there. FWIW, the old GM A bodies have a 4 link rear and it took some serious control rod adjustments to get both the rear pinion and the trans yoke parallel at around 1 or 1.5*.

Is your trans already shimmed up nearly into your tunnel steel?
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Old 03-19-2021, 02:09 PM   #228
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Yes. I'm using the Yoshifab t5 cross member and it's at max height. I could shim it up further to reduce the angle, but then the shifter will not be clearing the tunnel. The clearance is very tight as is and I've done lots of hammering/prying on the tunnel already.

It's probably not doable to obtain angles though unless I raise it correct? I will somehow need to make the shifter have a lower profile or cut out the shifter hole with a cut-off wheel, which I really don't want to do though. I know this will increase cabin noise and there'll be hot air coming in through the hole.

This is my current cheapie eBay shifter I modified with 1/4inch steel. I made it as low profile as possible and don't know what else I can do honestly. I do not have any welding capabilities, I only have a cut-off wheel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
Am I understanding this right.... your T5 gearbox output is at 8* ?

When I put the Pro Touring style suspension in my 70 Malibu 12 years ago, with adjustable rear suspension and 1 pc. drive shaft, the only way I could get the angles correct at the transmission exit was to serious space UP the tailshaft of my trans..... my GOD I think I ended up with almost 1.5 inches of steel beneath it. My autotragic in the Malibu was fractions away from the tunnel, and I could not go any higher.

All of the discussions in that ancient time, was that for lowered vehicles we will nearly always encounter this issue. I did end up with proper angles and no nasty vibes.... but I almost had to start pounding the tunnel steel to get there. FWIW, the old GM A bodies have a 4 link rear and it took some serious control rod adjustments to get both the rear pinion and the trans yoke parallel at around 1 or 1.5*.

Is your trans already shimmed up nearly into your tunnel steel?

Last edited by DavePolyakov; 03-19-2021 at 02:14 PM..
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Old 03-19-2021, 02:22 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by DavePolyakov View Post
These are my angles right now. The trans is at its max height and the smallest angle I can get out of it is 8 degrees. The CSB is lowered quite a lot. Is angling the diff upward dangerous? It drives pretty crappy as is. The adjustable torque rods are a factor but it's pretty bad.
So, every angle is up, and you have no downward angles canceling out driveline acceleration? That's going to vibe like a SOB.

On mine, I tried to get my trans and front shaft as close to parallel (zero degrees) as possible, and then allow the front-rear shaft angle cancel out the rear shaft-diff angle.

As far as the shifter...seems like the best option for the grandpa series drivers is to use one of those shifter relocation kits that moves it back, so you don't have shifter clearance issues.
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Old 03-19-2021, 04:33 PM   #230
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Yes, I've been looking into the relocation kits a lot, but almost all of them seem to be for t56's and are upwards of $399... yikes. It may be the only solution, I've also seen a lot of DIY shifter relocations but that might be out of my skill range.
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So, every angle is up, and you have no downward angles canceling out driveline acceleration? That's going to vibe like a SOB.

On mine, I tried to get my trans and front shaft as close to parallel (zero degrees) as possible, and then allow the front-rear shaft angle cancel out the rear shaft-diff angle.

As far as the shifter...seems like the best option for the grandpa series drivers is to use one of those shifter relocation kits that moves it back, so you don't have shifter clearance issues.
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Old 03-20-2021, 07:12 AM   #231
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From memory (it's been years!) you want the "operating angles" in the 1* to 2* range, as near equal as possible. ZERO is not a proper target, as U joint needle bearings must "roll" or they will be beaten flat on one surface and fail.

YEARS ago (a decade maybe) I think old BNE himself was prototyping a T5 extension plate to enable proper fitment into the 7/9 shifter location. I think he built a few, as perhaps JohnV might have himself. If memory serves, Nathan also built/bought one. He's long been gone from OVLOV land, but BNE might still have a CAD file. The final solution is so expensive it isn't practical..... get the T5 Aussie trans tail section which places the shifter in the proper position.

If you search, you will find threads from about 5-7 years ago that beat this T5 lenght & shifter position topic to death......

Lastly - are there any T5 RWD users running a one piece driveshaft? I think YOSHI was pushing this years ago with his adapter kit. As those experienced in this swap have learned..... the T5 must be (1) properly rebuilt and (2) properly shimmed to reduce the strange 3K vibes (the title of this thread, I think). My opinion will remain, that if one were to use the FORD 4 cylinder output yoke (large dampener design), you will achieve the best T5 solution. Those FORD OE Engineers figured this problem out for those Turbo T-bird 4 bangers, all those years ago....... and their solution still works.
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Old 03-20-2021, 08:14 AM   #232
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The t5 extension i made fit great but didn't work that great. I have had an idea in my head on how to do it proper but haven't had the time to get around to it.
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:25 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
Lastly - are there any T5 RWD users running a one piece driveshaft? I think YOSHI was pushing this years ago with his adapter kit. As those experienced in this swap have learned..... the T5 must be (1) properly rebuilt and (2) properly shimmed to reduce the strange 3K vibes (the title of this thread, I think). My opinion will remain, that if one were to use the FORD 4 cylinder output yoke (large dampener design), you will achieve the best T5 solution. Those FORD OE Engineers figured this problem out for those Turbo T-bird 4 bangers, all those years ago....... and their solution still works.
Yes, the large slip yoke damper eliminates the decel rattles. It is a tight fit in a 240 tunnel, not sure how similar the 7/9 tunnels are.
https://forums.tbforums.com/showpost...&postcount=242

I have a 1pc driveshaft in my 240. It rubs a little over large bumps with ipd springs and needed to have the pinion angle dialed in with adjustable torque rods (BNE Hybrid).
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Old 03-20-2021, 11:28 AM   #234
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I bought my T5 professionally rebuilt from a man in Portland. He's been rebuilding T5's and other units as a business for years, after retiring from a race team. He shimmed the Deeworks adapter plate for me as well so everything should be nice and proper.

About the 4-cyl T5, the Deeworks plate is not compatible as the bearing retainers on 4cyl and v8 tranny's are different. The Deeworks only is compatible with the v8. I had first bought a 4cyl t5 and was about to install it when I realized it wasn't compatible, so I then sold it. I am using the big 4 cylinder dampened slip yoke which is helping a lot I imagine.

About the one piece shaft in 740's nathininwa said, " the 7/9's have the unibody driveshaft loop and running a 1pc cause it to hit the tunnel under compression and when jacked up to change a tire, the shaft becomes the balance point! I had to limit the bumps and run straps. I had about 4 inches of wheel travel out back iirc. So I went back to a 3 inch 2pc shaft with a stout poly carrier bearing."

I saw some threads about the BNE 700/900 shifter solution but I have never seen a picture of it! Would be awesome if you made a v2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
From memory (it's been years!) you want the "operating angles" in the 1* to 2* range, as near equal as possible. ZERO is not a proper target, as U joint needle bearings must "roll" or they will be beaten flat on one surface and fail.

YEARS ago (a decade maybe) I think old BNE himself was prototyping a T5 extension plate to enable proper fitment into the 7/9 shifter location. I think he built a few, as perhaps JohnV might have himself. If memory serves, Nathan also built/bought one. He's long been gone from OVLOV land, but BNE might still have a CAD file. The final solution is so expensive it isn't practical..... get the T5 Aussie trans tail section which places the shifter in the proper position.

If you search, you will find threads from about 5-7 years ago that beat this T5 length & shifter position topic to death......

Lastly - are there any T5 RWD users running a one piece driveshaft? I think YOSHI was pushing this years ago with his adapter kit. As those experienced in this swap have learned..... the T5 must be (1) properly rebuilt and (2) properly shimmed to reduce the strange 3K vibes (the title of this thread, I think). My opinion will remain, that if one were to use the FORD 4 cylinder output yoke (large dampener design), you will achieve the best T5 solution. Those FORD OE Engineers figured this problem out for those Turbo T-bird 4 bangers, all those years ago....... and their solution still works.
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Old 03-26-2021, 01:48 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DET17 View Post
From memory (it's been years!) you want the "operating angles" in the 1* to 2* range, as near equal as possible. ZERO is not a proper target, as U joint needle bearings must "roll" or they will be beaten flat on one surface and fail.
This is why, on these cars stock, there's that rubber guibo instead of a U-joint on the front shaft. Once you put a u-joint in there, at an angle, and don't have a second one to cancel it out, you'll get the vibe issues.
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Old 03-26-2021, 06:17 PM   #236
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Unless you have a m45 or m46 which uses a u-joint at the trans....
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Old 06-02-2021, 07:43 PM   #237
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Default Vibes at idle?

So I got my angles pretty darn good but there was still a vibe around 2000-2500. I double-checked my measurements, but I found out that it is happening at idle, so it's not my driveshaft angles. The sound is a pretty deep reverberation that fills the cabin around 2-2.5k RPMs. It may be hard to hear in the video without headphones, but it's very noticeable in the cabin. When driving, there are no vibes from below 2k or above 2.5k. There are no exhaust leaks either. What should I check?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyXmc8HIgY
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Old 06-02-2021, 08:03 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by DavePolyakov View Post
So I got my angles pretty darn good but there was still a vibe around 2000-2500. I double-checked my measurements, but I found out that it is happening at idle, so it's not my driveshaft angles. The sound is a pretty deep reverberation that fills the cabin around 2-2.5k RPMs. It may be hard to hear in the video without headphones, but it's very noticeable in the cabin. When driving, there are no vibes from below 2k or above 2.5k. There are no exhaust leaks either. What should I check?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JyXmc8HIgY
It’s pretty hard to hear in your video.

Jog my memory what type of flywheel / clutch / are you running?

I know with my set up (lightened Yoshifab flywheel) I have a slight resonance at 3200 RPM. I think this is coming from the engine but I am sure it is amplified by my set up. When I had my trans out I attached the flywheel and free rev’d the engine and it was pretty smooth. Throw on a clutch and noisy gearbox and I do get some amplified vibes in neutral but IIRC I am not the only one who has this feature.
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Old 06-02-2021, 09:24 PM   #239
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Quick update on the yoke situation. A yard run revealed that an 89 Ranger 2.3L 2WD had the big balancer, 1.5" OD yoke, that runs a 1310 joint as well. Unfortunately, the one I found was trashed...
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Old 06-03-2021, 02:04 AM   #240
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I have the STS Machining lightened flywheel, Yoshifab stage 2 clutch, and pressure plate. I should have mentioned but there is a slight vibe when driving as well. You can slightly feel it pulsing if that makes sense.

But on another note, this may be just the way it is normally with this clutch setup and engine?
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Originally Posted by smoothdurban View Post
It’s pretty hard to hear in your video.

Jog my memory what type of flywheel / clutch / are you running?

I know with my set up (lightened Yoshifab flywheel) I have a slight resonance at 3200 RPM. I think this is coming from the engine but I am sure it is amplified by my set up. When I had my trans out I attached the flywheel and free rev’d the engine and it was pretty smooth. Throw on a clutch and noisy gearbox and I do get some amplified vibes in neutral but IIRC I am not the only one who has this feature.
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Old 06-03-2021, 11:36 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePolyakov View Post
I have the STS Machining lightened flywheel, Yoshifab stage 2 clutch, and pressure plate. I should have mentioned but there is a slight vibe when driving as well. You can slightly feel it pulsing if that makes sense.

But on another note, this may be just the way it is normally with this clutch setup and engine?
I really think this is just the second order vibes of the engine being channeled through a light flywheel and amplified by a generally noisy gear box.

Since the warmer weather has kicked in here I have been driving my car a lot lately. The vibes are by no means 100% gone but with the larger slip yoke, setting my driveline angles, as well as swapping out the poly trans mount for a rubber one, I am pretty happy with the way the car drives now. I guess that's what it all boils down to in the end. If your not happy with it keep digging.
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Old 06-03-2021, 08:20 PM   #242
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I think you are correct, that the vibes are going to be there when you mate together a t5 and a redblock. My vibe is definitely liveable, but when I get in my stock 240 with an m46 it feels like a much smoother and refined car than my 740 t5. Last question, what are symptoms of improper bellhousing alignment? This is the last thing I've not checked.
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Old 06-03-2021, 08:41 PM   #243
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I really think this is just the second order vibes of the engine being channeled through a light flywheel and amplified by a generally noisy gear box.
I think we established that by the end of page 1 and the rest has been a lot of tails getting chased
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:04 AM   #244
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What is a second order vibration?

How can it be measured?
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Old 06-04-2021, 06:42 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by ZVOLV View Post
What is a second order vibration?

How can it be measured?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_balance

Scroll down to secondary imbalance

I would assume a DAQ and some tri-axis accelerometers would be a start but I am not an NVH guy.
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Old 06-04-2021, 10:06 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by DavePolyakov View Post
I think you are correct, that the vibes are going to be there when you mate together a t5 and a redblock. My vibe is definitely liveable, but when I get in my stock 240 with an m46 it feels like a much smoother and refined car than my 740 t5. Last question, what are symptoms of improper bellhousing alignment? This is the last thing I've not checked.
misaligned bellhousing?
premature input shaft bearing failure, possible premature clutch failure, possible vibration.

The engine has 2 dowels on it to center the bellhousing, they both need to be there
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Old 06-04-2021, 11:15 AM   #247
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Yes, this is what I mean. Idk, maybe I am just chasing my tail but there is still a pulsing/vibe at around 2-2.5k I want to remove and I believe it's possible. I don't think I would feel a pulsing through the wheels when driving if my angles were 100% on point. These are my angles right now, the car lowered on two cut coils front and rear. Note that my driveway is not a flat surface. The first angle is trans, then the first shaft, the second shaft, and diff. I've messed around with the pinion angle and the height of the CSB a lot but if someone has advice I'd love to hear it.

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misaligned bellhousing?
premature input shaft bearing failure, possible premature clutch failure, possible vibration.

The engine has 2 dowels on it to center the bellhousing, they both need to be there
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Old Yesterday, 09:40 PM   #248
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Added the huge 1330 slip yoke with a conversion u-joint. It feels tolerable now!

Dave, use this guide. It will be massively helpful:

https://www.waterousco.com/media/wys...311-1-DSSP.pdf
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My knob has a big chunk of steel on it
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