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Old 02-24-2009, 03:57 PM   #26
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gawd pack up the HATERADE!
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:58 PM   #27
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I'm sure the header works great. I'd run it in a heartbeat.
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:01 PM   #28
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I doubt it matters one way or another, I don't forsee anyone picking one up any time soon :Shrug:
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:19 PM   #29
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I'm sure someone will get one, bolt on a turbo, brace the hell out of it, weld in some gussets, figure out a drain line that works, deal with the lower rad hose BS and the brake pipe BS, add a divider for the collector, remote mount the oil filter, and swear that it was the best deal on the internet.

The prototype gets props for being equal length, pulse paired, divided outlet, divided wastegate, constant diameter, etc. The routing isn't what I'd do, but honestly I don't know what I'd do so what he's got is better what I've built. The execution of the production header is nowhere near the standard of the prototype, though the price DOES reflect it.
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:10 PM   #30
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The bell piping means you can be extremely lazy in terms of joint fit, as there is no accuracy required for fitup - the pipe can be +/- 0.25" in length and there is no gap since it is slipped inside the other pipe- the end of the pipe can end up anywhere inside the slip joint.

It means every runner has a significant ridge internally at every weld point. Yay turbulence!

I can't see how anyone would think that's a good way to build a header heck at least stock cast manifolds are smooth inside.

while im always on the side of smooth is better , ive seen (on the dyno ) offsets in tubing upto 2mm that have no effect on power , the boundary layer is always present , you trip it up with a step(which is the offset) which reintroduces it again further down the pipe .

dont forget tho that while there is a step teh cross sectional area hasnt changed if that is the same internal diameter .
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:21 PM   #31
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I doubt that there is laminar flow anywhere in any tube. A flow that is perfectly straight will rotate with turbulence the first time it hits a bend. A turbulent gas will flow more than a straight flow.

I believe that the best pressurized manifolds have the shortest runs.

Your beliefs might be different, but these are my opinions.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:32 PM   #32
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I was reading some of Jens Gustavsson's header musings on Sävar and he said that after testing long and short headers, he couldn't find anything advantageous about going to shorter runners. He saw more gains by going to longer tuned length primaries.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:40 PM   #33
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Kinda off OT, but did anyone notice the drop in replacement IC's they have? Look pretty sweet, but $275 is a lil steep, i guess.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:21 PM   #34
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Kinda off OT, but did anyone notice the drop in replacement IC's they have? Look pretty sweet, but $275 is a lil steep, i guess.


**** SON!!!!! They are really sweet! $275 is cheap, for a bolt in, high flow, intercooler that you can re-use your stock i/c plumbing and have it installed and rocking in like 30 min!
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:09 AM   #35
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Ya, that's what I was thinkin, but most people would rather buy an Ebay IC and pipe kit and frankenstien it together, LOL. Or they could just be lame (read OCD) like me and be happy using the stocker because it fits well.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:27 AM   #36
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Old 02-25-2009, 02:08 AM   #37
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The thing is, you really need a proper merge collector to have a proper header, and that will require some runner length to do properly.

Start with a good collector and work backwards. The rest will be a matter of packaging as much as anything unless you are will to modify coachwork and/or motor mounts etc to acheive a certain length.


I would take a header with short runners, assuming they were long enough to allow for a good merge, over a header with long runners that had a POS merge collector any day.

I don't care what the computer program says or what you have "pulse tuned" it to- if you aren't directing the pulses into the turbine in an efficient manner, the manifold sucks.

Not that the manifold in the OP has a bad merge, I'm just saying there are other things that take priority IMO.
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Old 02-25-2009, 03:02 AM   #38
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The thing is, you really need a proper merge collector to have a proper header, and that will require some runner length to do properly.

Start with a good collector and work backwards. The rest will be a matter of packaging as much as anything unless you are will to modify coachwork and/or motor mounts etc to acheive a certain length.


I would take a header with short runners, assuming they were long enough to allow for a good merge, over a header with long runners that had a POS merge collector any day.

I don't care what the computer program says or what you have "pulse tuned" it to- if you aren't directing the pulses into the turbine in an efficient manner, the manifold sucks.

Not that the manifold in the OP has a bad merge, I'm just saying there are other things that take priority IMO.
Playing devil's advocate here, but I don't think I've seen you build a header with anything more than a 3" collector, which I don't know if I would classify as a 'good merge'.
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:11 AM   #39
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Personally, I would like one that fits well, is easy to work around and doesnt crack. You also have to take into account, is it for an all out racer missing half the stuff under the hood OR a drop in replacement for a street car.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:43 AM   #40
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Playing devil's advocate here, but I don't think I've seen you build a header with anything more than a 3" collector, which I don't know if I would classify as a 'good merge'.

Since when are 15 degree merge collectors "not what you would classify as good"?

The vast majority of hondas making 600hp+ on 2000cc's with sub 1 ebrs must be doing it wrong, like the 15 degree collector on that 700hp S2000 with the stock block.

I'd like to see a maniflld that fits in a stock engine bay with a merge better than 15 degrees. I didn't see any one that savar thread. It's diminishing returns past that IMO, and 99% of people don't want a hole in their hood, Karl.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:54 AM   #41
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Just about anything is better than a log or cast manifold, but if you show 99% of the turbo collectors out there to guys building real all motor power, they'll laugh at you. Boost response isn't just about making the exhaust volume as small as possible. I've seen a turbo SBC spool 500rpm sooner by going to a bigger hotside. My opinion (and I know we disagree here ) is that the importance of maximizing the heat energy in the exhaust pulses by shortening the collector and runners is overstated.

Out of curiosity, where are you seeing the sub-1 EBRs? Of all the Honda Tech lurking I've done, there seem to be plenty of guys putting down big numbers, but the vast majority don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to the actual mechanics of what's happening in their engine.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:55 AM   #42
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:02 PM   #43
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what if there was a tornado fuel saver where the collector begins to merge?
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:56 PM   #44
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Tony1
Exactly. No better example than T1 Race.
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Old 02-25-2009, 09:03 PM   #45
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I really wish they would get the SS header right with the flange. Maybe we can email them this time and they could fix it!?!

Who knows.

B
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:01 PM   #46
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I really wish they would get the SS header right with the flange. Maybe we can email them this time and they could fix it!?!

Who knows.

B
i think it's the current stock
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Old 02-25-2009, 10:18 PM   #47
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i think it's the current stock
They probably made a batch of 100 5 years ago, and are still struggling to sell them.
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Old 02-26-2009, 01:25 AM   #48
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FWIW the car I'm thinking of specifically and that I think Kenny is thinking of as well is the 700hp stock-engined S2000.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2445762

You'll notice in the thread Tony references both ebr and fast burn in the first 1 or 2 pages. I don't know if he has number for this one but he does for his drag car, which uses a similar merge and runs 8.6's.

The merge looks like this:



So that merge is good for 700hp on a stock 2000cc bottom end.

My merges are exactly like that. Such things as this car make me inclined to think they are just fine, and that a revised merge that puts the turbo through the hood has a pretty low effort/benefit ratio.

What is the theory behind the really long ones Karl?
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Old 02-28-2009, 03:07 PM   #49
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Did you guys notice the new header they just came out with?Seems alot better then the ss autocrap.And its a top mount :D.

http://74.125.45.132/translate_c?hl=...yTMwPJAEcrUMBw

$321 Cheap for a pretty good looking header.Id rock one.Doesn't look as near as bad as the SS autochrome ones.And id bet with the proper bracing it'd work wonderful.
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Old 02-28-2009, 04:42 PM   #50
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Did you guys notice the new header they just came out with?Seems alot better then the ss autocrap.And its a top mount :D.

http://74.125.45.132/translate_c?hl=...yTMwPJAEcrUMBw

$321 Cheap for a pretty good looking header.Id rock one.Doesn't look as near as bad as the SS autochrome ones.And id bet with the proper bracing it'd work wonderful.

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