home register FAQ memberlist calendar

Go Back   Turbobricks Forums > Mechanical > performance & modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-24-2022, 01:21 AM   #1
sc0terdad
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Victoria, Bc
Default 4cl t5 swap questions

so I have recently bought a 4cl t5 transmission, (I am sure that a thread like this may be better suited to a mustang forum but I figured that due to the fact that the transmission will be going into a volvo, this would be the place to ask.)

what I was wondering: I have read that the 4cl t5 transmissions have a shorter 1st gear than the other t5s and that it makes the 1st gear very "spinny"

does anyone have experience with a 4cl t5 swap and how the driving experience turned out?
do you have any suggestions?

thanks.
sc0terdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2022, 09:28 AM   #2
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Lookup the tag

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Bo...T5-ID-Tags.htm

Higher numerical 1st means it’s producing more torque multiplication, and reducing speed. You can plug that in to a speed calc with some other details to get a good idea of how it will perform.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikep View Post
Build it, break it, build what broke stronger, lather, rinse, repeat.

The Build Thread
SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO!
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2022, 11:26 AM   #3
white855T
Board Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Dallas,TX
Default

I think a few people round here have used them but most preferred the wct5.
white855T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2022, 01:29 AM   #4
Tentshedtrev
Board Member
 
Tentshedtrev's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Default

I've had both. 4cyl behind a b21ft with a holset he351. 83 244, 3.73 auto rear end. Horrible ratio combination, geared like a truck, 1st was good for 3 car lengths. Hated it. 3.31 or lower may have made it tolerable but still not ideal.
Second was a WC V8t5 behind a b230ft in a 90' 70, first with 3.31 manual rear end, that was too tall for my liking, 2nd was miles deep, 3rd was a big jump. 1800 rpm on the hiway at 100km/hr. Swapped in a 16v 4.10 rear end, perfect combo. lots of legs in first to build some boost, nice gaps between second and 3rd, 5th is 2350 rpm on the hiway at 100km/hr.
If you are doing the t5 swap, hold out for the proper ratios, it can make or break the car.
__________________
Life is too short to stay redblock..

06' V70R m66, stock, and keeping it that way
1990 740 SE, Eaton m90 supercharged b230F drift car *parted and crushed*
1981 242 turbo t5 whiteblock swap (in progress) (He351, MS3x, WC T5)
1990 245 Mitsubishi 4D56 turbo diesel km132 transmission, water/meth *sold*
1983 245 LQ4 6.0/ar5 trans/8.8 diff, longtubes, intake, sloppy stage 2, BMW front suspension, dual calipers
1990 740t WC t5, 15g, greentops, chips, 3" maf,
Tentshedtrev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2022, 08:11 PM   #5
sc0terdad
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Victoria, Bc
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tentshedtrev View Post
I've had both. 4cyl behind a b21ft with a holset he351. 83 244, 3.73 auto rear end. Horrible ratio combination, geared like a truck, 1st was good for 3 car lengths. Hated it. 3.31 or lower may have made it tolerable but still not ideal.
Second was a WC V8t5 behind a b230ft in a 90' 70, first with 3.31 manual rear end, that was too tall for my liking, 2nd was miles deep, 3rd was a big jump. 1800 rpm on the hiway at 100km/hr. Swapped in a 16v 4.10 rear end, perfect combo. lots of legs in first to build some boost, nice gaps between second and 3rd, 5th is 2350 rpm on the hiway at 100km/hr.
If you are doing the t5 swap, hold out for the proper ratios, it can make or break the car.
frankly I don't know much about gear ratios, I get that the 4cl t5 is probably not ideal, but would it be combatable with a diffrent rear ratio, I own the 4cl t5 as of now and would rather not have to sell and rebuy.

would you consider it worth it to sell the 4cl or attempt to gear it differently with a rear ratio?
sc0terdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2022, 08:39 PM   #6
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Livermore, CA
Default

I've been doing some research into ratios and while the 1st on the V8 T5 gearboxes does seem better overall than the stump puller the 4 cylinder T5 or M45/46/47 family got, the overdrive seems a bit too aggressive for what is ultimately a four cylinder car. But luckily it seems relatively easy to swap the 0.68:1 OD gears for something in the 0.7-0.8 range.
__________________
1967 122s, carbed B20F, M41, the sports tractor
1998 S70, grandma-mobile
1980 245
1989 240 B230F, V15 cam, chipped EZK, M47 swap (Lost a fight with a Chevy express van), the millennial falcon
2012 VW Tiguan (screw plastic water pumps), daily
spock345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2022, 08:46 PM   #7
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sc0terdad View Post
frankly I don't know much about gear ratios, I get that the 4cl t5 is probably not ideal, but would it be combatable with a diffrent rear ratio, I own the 4cl t5 as of now and would rather not have to sell and rebuy.

would you consider it worth it to sell the 4cl or attempt to gear it differently with a rear ratio?
That was why I pointed you to the gear calculator. Find your box tag and check the ratios against the calculator. It’ll give you a good idea in mph of what each gear will do for a given rpm and tire/rear end ratio.

Everyone has a different driving style, so you may find that something is or isn’t for you.
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2022, 08:56 PM   #8
sc0terdad
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Victoria, Bc
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
That was why I pointed you to the gear calculator. Find your box tag and check the ratios against the calculator. It’ll give you a good idea in mph of what each gear will do for a given rpm and tire/rear end ratio.

Everyone has a different driving style, so you may find that something is or isn’t for you.
thanks, I will do that for sure.

I kinda skimmed over the part where you mentioned the gear calculator.
sc0terdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2022, 11:26 PM   #9
HiSPL
Fanking Champion 1993
 
HiSPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: College Station, TX
Default

There are many combinations of the BW-T5 transmission. The best for our cars seems to be the one that was on Cobra Mustangs with the 2.95 First gear ratio. The WCT5z. It has the most friendly spread of ratios in it IF you plan on regearing the rear diff to a 3.73, 3.91, or 4.10 gear.

Even with a 4.10 gear you end up spinning about the same RPM in 5th gear as the stock M46/47 with a 3.31 geared car does. But it will actually move when you hit the throttle and the gear spread is much more friendly for spirited driving.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by 240240 View Post
Beets taste like buttfeet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 240 240 View Post
water-cooled VW owners can't even tell you the flavor of Cheetos they ate last night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lando
Tinnitus and hearing loss? Sounds like your ears could tolerate some Bose 901s!
96 960 (rotted)
88 244
06 XC90 V8
03 V70(crashed)
92 745 Turbo
HiSPL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 10:15 AM   #10
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sc0terdad View Post
thanks, I will do that for sure.

I kinda skimmed over the part where you mentioned the gear calculator.
Forgot to add the link.
https://spicerparts.com/calculators/...rpm-calculator

My .02… using a 3.35 t5 gearbox with a 3.73 was dumb on a 245/45/17 (25.7” tall tire). First gear at 6k was ~35 mph, second at 6k was ~60, 3rd 90, 4th 120, 5th would be 180, but I never got there. And the low reduction rear made for bad days in the parking lots, starting on hills, and ultimately killed a couple clutches. Literally couldn’t get moving without barking the tires or roaching my clutch.

MY preferred driving style would have more fun taking that rear ratio to a 4.11-4.56. Yeah, first gets really short and top speed is lower, but I would have had a better time keeping clutches alive with hills and such, and been able to get into second gear at the local auto-x days when the Miata guys set up the track.

Going to a 2.95 box may have been nice, but I like my stump puller 1st for parking lots and partying. YMMV.
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 11:52 AM   #11
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Livermore, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwdodson88 View Post
Forgot to add the link.
https://spicerparts.com/calculators/...rpm-calculator

My .02… using a 3.35 t5 gearbox with a 3.73 was dumb on a 245/45/17 (25.7” tall tire). First gear at 6k was ~35 mph, second at 6k was ~60, 3rd 90, 4th 120, 5th would be 180, but I never got there. And the low reduction rear made for bad days in the parking lots, starting on hills, and ultimately killed a couple clutches. Literally couldn’t get moving without barking the tires or roaching my clutch.

MY preferred driving style would have more fun taking that rear ratio to a 4.11-4.56. Yeah, first gets really short and top speed is lower, but I would have had a better time keeping clutches alive with hills and such, and been able to get into second gear at the local auto-x days when the Miata guys set up the track.

Going to a 2.95 box may have been nice, but I like my stump puller 1st for parking lots and partying. YMMV.
Amazons and 140s usually got 4.10 to 4.56 rear ends to pair with the M40/41's 3.13:1 1st gear. I can't imagine going lower and expecting any sort of life from my clutch.
spock345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 12:11 PM   #12
HiSPL
Fanking Champion 1993
 
HiSPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: College Station, TX
Default

The simple answer is that we have better clutches now. They can stand a lot more heat and the pressure plates clamp harder than they did in the 70's.
HiSPL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 01:31 PM   #13
cwdodson88
Board Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiSPL View Post
The simple answer is that we have better clutches now. They can stand a lot more heat and the pressure plates clamp harder than they did in the 70's.
Brand spanking new fx400 from yoshifab, slightly lightened 22lb flywheel. With that combo, no likey feathers, so on/off or ruined. Personally 3.35 first on a 3.73 rear is silly long without diesel torques to get you rolling, higher rear reduction puts more torques to the tire, so I’d rather run a 4.11-4.56. Big heavy 28# flywheel might have helped, but doesn’t fit my driving style. Personal preference. I have friends that love having super close gears and starting in what feels to me like a good second gear, but personally, I don’t. Also I don’t really see the need for crazy top speed, so my preference is wide step 1-2 and closer 2-5.
cwdodson88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 02:46 PM   #14
sloopy
2-digit whp
 
sloopy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default

I run 225/60R15 tires (25.6" diameter) and have the 4.10 rear end. The 4.03 first gear on the m47 is laughably short and I grind the synchro shifting into second if I rev too high and shift too quickly. The t5 with a 2.95 first on my 4.10 rear (12.1) seems like it would be a lot of fun with very close gears, but that would be even slightly taller than cwdodson88's 3.35 first on 3.73 rear (12.5). Is it really that bad?
__________________
1992 volvo 240 wagon: black
> engine: b230f, a-cam, tube header
> drivetrain: m47ii, 4.10 gear, wavetrac lsd
> front suspension: bne coilover, 200 lb/in spring, koni sport damper, bne qsrc v2, bne strut mount, 23 mm bar
> rear suspension: lesjofors 131-188 lb/in spring, koni sport damper, 19 mm bar
> wheel: 15x7 multi-x
> tire: 225/60R15 bfgoodrich radial t/a
> misc: 6 lb lithium battery
sloopy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 02:54 PM   #15
HiSPL
Fanking Champion 1993
 
HiSPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: College Station, TX
Default

I want this ratio because I don't do any drag racing. I want the close 2-3-4 shifts and a steep rear gear. I'm building a canyon carver. The fact that the WCT5z also has a .63 5th gear is incredibly appealing since you can run that steep rear gear, but still cruise in 5th on the highway at normal RPM....
HiSPL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 09:33 PM   #16
sc0terdad
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Victoria, Bc
Default

so I was considering maybe, since I already have the t5 with the 3.97 1st that to combat that ratio it would pay off to use a 3.31 rear end making 1st gear idle at somthing 10 kph and be good till somthing like 24kph ish

or does this seem a bit aggressive for what is ultimately a redblock car?

and should have 5th cruising 3500rpm at about 107kph with extra legs for high-ISH (not really) top speed

Last edited by sc0terdad; 10-28-2022 at 10:02 PM..
sc0terdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2022, 11:42 PM   #17
HiSPL
Fanking Champion 1993
 
HiSPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: College Station, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sc0terdad View Post
so I was considering maybe, since I already have the t5 with the 3.97 1st that to combat that ratio it would pay off to use a 3.31 rear end making 1st gear idle at somthing 10 kph and be good till somthing like 24kph ish

or does this seem a bit aggressive for what is ultimately a redblock car?

and should have 5th cruising 3500rpm at about 107kph with extra legs for high-ISH (not really) top speed
It's doable, but it'll end up being kinda lazy around 40-80 mph. You'll never get any "top speed" out of a 240. They hit a serious wall around 100 and it takes cubic dollars to get past that.
HiSPL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2022, 12:15 AM   #18
sc0terdad
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Victoria, Bc
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiSPL View Post
It's doable, but it'll end up being kinda lazy around 40-80 mph. You'll never get any "top speed" out of a 240. They hit a serious wall around 100 and it takes cubic dollars to get past that.
intentions for the car is somewhere between 250-300 whp, it should be achievable to exceed 100kph with numbers like that right, i've driven Toyotas with 170hp that've gone 160
sc0terdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2022, 12:31 AM   #19
HiSPL
Fanking Champion 1993
 
HiSPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: College Station, TX
Default

Ah. I was measuring in freedom units. I meant at 100mph/160kph the 240 hits a big aerodynamic wall. With 300 Hp you'll be able to go faster, but not that much faster with a big lazy gear in the rear end. It'll be faster in 4th gear than it will be in 5th.
HiSPL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2022, 11:51 AM   #20
spock345
Board Member
 
spock345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Livermore, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiSPL View Post
Ah. I was measuring in freedom units. I meant at 100mph/160kph the 240 hits a big aerodynamic wall. With 300 Hp you'll be able to go faster, but not that much faster with a big lazy gear in the rear end. It'll be faster in 4th gear than it will be in 5th.
I mean do you really need a 240 to do more than 100MPH?
spock345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2022, 01:40 PM   #21
daijoubanai
waste of skin and blood
 
daijoubanai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sc0terdad View Post
so I was considering maybe, since I already have the t5 with the 3.97 1st that to combat that ratio it would pay off to use a 3.31 rear end making 1st gear idle at somthing 10 kph and be good till somthing like 24kph ish

or does this seem a bit aggressive for what is ultimately a redblock car?

and should have 5th cruising 3500rpm at about 107kph with extra legs for high-ISH (not really) top speed
That 5th gear cruising rpm at that speed seems kinda high in my opinion. Not something I'd want to live with if I did a lot of highway driving.

First seems fine, but I'm also ok with my m47 first gear and 3.31 rear end but a lot of other people hate it.
__________________
.
daijoubanai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2022, 02:15 PM   #22
sloopy
2-digit whp
 
sloopy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock345 View Post
I mean do you really need a 240 to do more than 100MPH?
yes
sloopy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2022, 02:38 PM   #23
sc0terdad
Board Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Victoria, Bc
Default

^^^
sc0terdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2022, 03:29 PM   #24
HiSPL
Fanking Champion 1993
 
HiSPL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: College Station, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by spock345 View Post
I mean do you really need a 240 to do more than 100MPH?
Only on a rally stage.
HiSPL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2022, 10:30 PM   #25
vwbusman66
Stößelstange über alles
 
vwbusman66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: SE MI
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiSPL View Post
Only on a rally stage.
Or on I696 in Detroit where the right lane cruising speed is 85 and the fast lane is WOT.
__________________
1964.5 122S Wagon
1971 142
1979 Rabbit C
1984 Rabbit L VR6
2009 Jetta Sportwagen 2.5S 69 speed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast740fromSC
I am living proof that fetal alcohol syndrome is not that bad
Quote:
Originally Posted by linuxman51 View Post
the only problem with that is what you define as cheap and fast
Quote:
Originally Posted by propav8r
The incest is implied.
vwbusman66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.