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Old 11-08-2022, 11:22 AM   #1
RoadRacer4Life
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Default Adding ABS

So as most of you guys know I've been working and driving Randy Pobst's Flyin Moose Volvo 740. I have been working to improve the car bit by bit and re-installing the ABS system in now on my list. His previous mechanic ripped all the old ABS stuff off of the car and well I want it back.

Is the ABS system on a 740 and 240 the same?
Same computer and number of channels? Same or similar sensors?

I picked up a complete ABS system from another t-bricks member with all of the wiring, computer and pump included. The 240 ABS system wiring is completely isolated from the rest of the wiring harness so I am hoping to just graft this system onto the 740.

Any thoughts or concerns from you guys? Useful info that might help me out?

Thanks guys

-Sam


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Old 11-08-2022, 11:34 AM   #2
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Not that this is a definitive authority, but here's an eBay auction for an ABS ECU that agrees with my strong hunch that they're all the same: https://www.ebay.com/itm/22349980883...9ZxE-BBdKpDogI

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COMPATIBILITY
For Reference only:
1991-1993 VOLVO 240 SERIES ABS; (under pass seat)
1989-1992 VOLVO 740 ABS; (LH dash)
1989-1990 VOLVO 760 ABS; (LH dash)
1990-1991 VOLVO 780 ABS; (LH kick pnl)
1991-1993 VOLVO 940 ABS; (LH dash)
1992-1993 VOLVO 960 ABS; (LH dash)
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Old 11-08-2022, 12:16 PM   #3
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search for BMW sytem, pretty sure there is a relatively simple way to usea JY one for 4 channel system if you sacrifice parking brake? remember a thread recently here
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:06 PM   #4
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Another option: https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=344953

Bernal Dads racecar based in NorCal. I have never driven this car, but I believe Randy has.
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:14 PM   #5
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I saved the entire working abs system from a 93 945. Front lines included. I doubt I will use it.
What year is the moose? Does it still have the front tone rings? I have those, but if you need the hubs you will have to find those. I re-drilled these for ford pattern.
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:14 PM   #6
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I would check the 240 / 740 parts catalog for the year of the parts you acquired, and for the year of the car in question.

Since both cars utilize 2 front & one rear sensor, chances are the electronics are much the same. I have the Volvo Greenbook for late 80's ABS, I can look later to see if there are any chassis-specific notes.
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:25 PM   #7
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I just looked the part numbers up on GCP for the hydraulic and control unit, both late 2 and 7 cars used the same one, part 6819092 and 3523142.
Looks like you'll be fine on that part.
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:26 PM   #8
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I did verify via www.gcp.se that the 740 and the 240 have the same part number for the ABS ECU (3523142-2), as well as the hydraulic valve unit (6819092-5).

You're probably down to the brackets being different that hold the components in the dash/under the seat and engine bay. And different hoses.

But the main important parts are the exact same.
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:27 PM   #9
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Hah, beaten to the punch on that front!
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:33 PM   #10
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Better to double check anyway!
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:52 PM   #11
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the silver relay with the fuse on top is the same as well
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Old 11-08-2022, 03:52 PM   #12
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The 240/7/9 Volvo ABS is rather crude when really pushed. If you go this route, be careful when you are first using the car hard again. Greg Ervin's 740 would have no brakes whatsoever at times and it took hearing a story about a Porsche momentarily having almost no brakes from a Autocross National Champion/EVO/Hooked On Driving instructor before we figured out what was going on. The 740 would go into ice mode and you could literally stand on the brakes with almost no deceleration happening. The 740 was set up much the same as the car you are driving, coil overs front and rear with very stiff springs. Radically different wheel speeds causes the system to go into ice mode. It is quite easy to find yourself in ice mode Autocrossing, road racing, etc. All you can do is get off the brakes to let the wheel speeds equalize and then get back on the brakes if you haven't already rear ended someone or hit the wall.
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Old 11-08-2022, 04:40 PM   #13
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This swede put 240 ABS it to his 142.

http://www.140-klubben.org/se/forums...-abs-2960.html
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Old 11-09-2022, 12:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyturbos View Post
The 240/7/9 Volvo ABS is rather crude when really pushed. If you go this route, be careful when you are first using the car hard again. Greg Ervin's 740 would have no brakes whatsoever at times and it took hearing a story about a Porsche momentarily having almost no brakes from a Autocross National Champion/EVO/Hooked On Driving instructor before we figured out what was going on. The 740 would go into ice mode and you could literally stand on the brakes with almost no deceleration happening. The 740 was set up much the same as the car you are driving, coil overs front and rear with very stiff springs. Radically different wheel speeds causes the system to go into ice mode. It is quite easy to find yourself in ice mode Autocrossing, road racing, etc. All you can do is get off the brakes to let the wheel speeds equalize and then get back on the brakes if you haven't already rear ended someone or hit the wall.
I run the same setup on my race 245 and have been pretty happy with it. Agreed its crude but the brakes on Randy's car have been subpar for a while now and we have had issues with flatspots due to lockups. Trying to avoid unnecessary tire changes.
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Old 11-09-2022, 02:43 PM   #15
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As crude as the system is it out braked us every time. When we were trying to figure out what was going on we pulled the fuse to see if it would put an end to the no brakes situation. It did. Our runs were always slightly slower because we had to brake earlier. We assumed something was wrong with the pump or computer controlling the ABS. It wasn't until that conversation with Tom Kotzian that we realized it was doing exactly what it was designed to do. We ran the ABS from then on and were ready for a no brakes situation. The problem didn't arise until the spring and damper rate went way up to road race stiffness/frequencies. That resulted in the 740 lifting inside tires on really hard cornering. My post was just a heads up in case you never experienced ice mode. As long as Randy has been racing I'm betting he has more than once. The first time leads to panic mode because it feels like a mechanical failure.
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Old 11-09-2022, 03:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by RoadRacer4Life View Post
I run the same setup on my race 245 and have been pretty happy with it. Agreed its crude but the brakes on Randy's car have been subpar for a while now and we have had issues with flatspots due to lockups. Trying to avoid unnecessary tire changes.
Meh. I have a decent tire that has a huge flat spot from our last race. I feel your pain.
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Old 11-10-2022, 02:41 AM   #17
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Look at the MK60 ABS thread. Looks like nearly all the facelift E46 ABS systems work standalone and can be tuned.
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Old 11-10-2022, 10:02 AM   #18
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MK60 ABS can be run standalone, and it has wheelspeed outputs (or CAN if you have an actually decent standalone)
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Old 11-10-2022, 11:19 AM   #19
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MK60 ABS can be run standalone, and it has wheelspeed outputs (or CAN if you have an actually decent standalone)
I've been told by a BMW specialty race shop that the MK60 is essentially straight out of the Bosch motorsports catalog and can be run standalone. The recent MK60 thread recently is a good read. The rear axle will need speed sensors on each wheel.
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Old 11-15-2022, 02:58 AM   #20
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Happened to stumbled across this thread.

We race an 1989 780 and were having all sorts of braking issues locking up, flat spots on tires brakes fade etc etc..! Although we never experienced it ours did have an abs system at one point but parts of it are missing.

We are in the middle of upgrading to s60r brakes all round and I was about to rip out what’s left of the ABS. But now maybe I’m thinking I should reconsider! We were goin to go with a willwood portioning valve with the new calipers, rotors, MC & booster and call it good.

Is the ABS system really worth reviving? Are there big advantages to have it for racing?

What parts make up the system exactly. We still have the abs module & MC but that’s about it.. all wiring, sensors and ECU are gone ..

We are running a b230ft 16v with a stand-alone microsquirt.


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Old 11-15-2022, 09:54 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by WillettRun? View Post
MK60 ABS can be run standalone, and it has wheelspeed outputs (or CAN if you have an actually decent standalone)
Does this apply to all MK60 ABS or just the BMW E46M3 ABS? The MK60 ABS was used in a lot of different vehicles and the units (ECU and hydraulic block) can be found for around $200. Would be great if all MK60 ECUs could be flashed or are there differences between front-wheel, rear-wheel, all-wheel-drive units?

https://www.ate-brakes.com/products/...-control-unit/

EDIT: did some research and no, you can't use any other MK60 units other than the E46 M3 ones. Two reasons:

1.) The hydraulic block is car specific. VW for example has two diagonal brake circuits (front left and rear right, front right and rear left - so no front rear bias possible!). BMW has front circuit and rear circuit with a brake bias.

2.) All MK60 except the M3 units have a ROM chip whereas the M3 unit got a RAM chip. Can you change from ROM to RAM? Don't know...

Last edited by VolvoGLT; 11-15-2022 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 11-15-2022, 01:14 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Slickbrick780 View Post
Happened to stumbled across this thread.

We race an 1989 780 and were having all sorts of braking issues locking up, flat spots on tires brakes fade etc etc..! Although we never experienced it ours did have an abs system at one point but parts of it are missing.

We are in the middle of upgrading to s60r brakes all round and I was about to rip out what’s left of the ABS. But now maybe I’m thinking I should reconsider! We were goin to go with a willwood portioning valve with the new calipers, rotors, MC & booster and call it good.

Is the ABS system really worth reviving? Are there big advantages to have it for racing?

What parts make up the system exactly. We still have the abs module & MC but that’s about it.. all wiring, sensors and ECU are gone ..

We are running a b230ft 16v with a stand-alone microsquirt.


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Lemons / Lucky Dog racer here with a 740 wagon. I can't answer your ABS question, but we do not get any fade and the only flat spot we have had recently was when our tie rods were both shot on our steering rack. We run stock calipers and they work very well.

To get there we used high quality fluid ATE Typ 200, Motul, etc. Race pads, specifically ST43s made by Porterfield, but we are trying R4Es as ST43s are hard to get right now. Centric blank rotors, not drilled. We had a hard time with air in the lines until we used a Motive power bleeder.
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Old 11-15-2022, 01:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickbrick780 View Post
Happened to stumbled across this thread.

We race an 1989 780 and were having all sorts of braking issues locking up, flat spots on tires brakes fade etc etc..! Although we never experienced it ours did have an abs system at one point but parts of it are missing.

We are in the middle of upgrading to s60r brakes all round and I was about to rip out what’s left of the ABS. But now maybe I’m thinking I should reconsider! We were goin to go with a willwood portioning valve with the new calipers, rotors, MC & booster and call it good.

Is the ABS system really worth reviving? Are there big advantages to have it for racing?

What parts make up the system exactly. We still have the abs module & MC but that’s about it.. all wiring, sensors and ECU are gone ..

We are running a b230ft 16v with a stand-alone microsquirt.


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Don't think the old early 90s systems are worth the trouble for racing applications. Ideally you would want the MK60 if you want anything relatively easy and off-the-shelf, that can individually control brake force in each corner.
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Old 11-16-2022, 07:36 PM   #24
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+1 for the MK60. We have one in our Lucky Dog 240, and it feels like cheating. We can outbrake just about everybody except for real E46 M3s. We've run both the unit from an E46 330i and an E46 M3 (neither flashed, just the M3 one set to the M3 CSL parameters). The 330i unit was good, and the M3 one is better.

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Does this apply to all MK60 ABS or just the BMW E46M3 ABS?
EDIT: did some research and no, you can't use any other MK60 units other than the E46 M3 ones. Two reasons:
This is not quite true - all E46 hydraulic units are the same, M3 or otherwise. The other flavors of MK60 on other vehicles may or may not be the same. We currently have an M3 brain on a 330i hydraulic unit (didn't want to re-bleed when I found the M3 unit for cheap) and it works perfect.
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Old 11-16-2022, 07:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by mck1117 View Post
+1 for the MK60. We have one in our Lucky Dog 240, and it feels like cheating. We can outbrake just about everybody except for real E46 M3s. We've run both the unit from an E46 330i and an E46 M3 (neither flashed, just the M3 one set to the M3 CSL parameters). The 330i unit was good, and the M3 one is better.



This is not quite true - all E46 hydraulic units are the same, M3 or otherwise. The other flavors of MK60 on other vehicles may or may not be the same. We currently have an M3 brain on a 330i hydraulic unit (didn't want to re-bleed when I found the M3 unit for cheap) and it works perfect.
Cool! Care to elaborate more on your setup? Wondering whether you stripped back a BMW wiring harness and what your rear reluctor wheels look like
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