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Old 12-07-2019, 07:59 AM   #26
cleanflametrap
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It's 2.4 car. The inspection plate is a good idea if not for the 2 feet of snow surrounding the car. I'll save that check for last.
Yes, I thought about that snow while reviewing the photos, and it brought back a distant memory of dropping a Torqueflite in a snowy Chicago apartment parking lot. I was a kid and had to get to work Monday. Glad those days are in the past.

Something you can do from above: Get a fresh start in the morning after having the battery brought up overnight. Mark your crank pulley (I use a craft store white paint pen) at the zero (and while you're at it, 180). Pull the connectors from the injectors, and watch that crank pulley with your timing light on the coil wire, while a kind soul cranks the engine. Too bad the remote starter tap was dropped on the '93.

Then check the plugs for fuel to be sure you aren't fighting an injector that's stuck open regardless of electricity.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:59 AM   #27
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Alright so today with SwedishK I finally got out to continue to troubleshoot the car.

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Originally Posted by ZVOLV View Post
Clear flood. Disable injectors. Brake cleaner. Start?
No start, not even a stumble.

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Originally Posted by bobxyz View Post
Given your snowy working conditions, I'd try:

1) Visually check spark during cranking -- see 1st picture in ZVOLV's No Start thread. Make sure it's firing consistently and rapidly (10ish times per second) and not intermittent. If it's intermittent, try replacing the ignition module.

2) Check timing with timing light during cranking -- should be 10deg BTDC

3) Measure voltage on + or blue wire on coil with key on and during cranking -- should be +12volts. If voltage drops out during cranking, the ignition switch is suspect.

4) As a long shot, try rotating the spark plug wires by one tower, crank, rotate another tower, crank, etc. Just give it a brief crank -- if it backfires through the intake, it can cause damage. [This step shouldn't be necessary if the timing belt, disti, and plug wires are known to be properly aligned.]

5) I'm hesitant to suggest pulling the injector rail to verify fueling due to the risk of fire -- do so at your own risk. First, unplug and tape off the +/blue coil wire to prevent any errant spark. I've had good luck using plastic sandwich bags wire tied around the injectors to collect a small amount of gas while cranking.

1. I had SwedishK check spark at the plug while cranking. 1 and 2 were fine. He thought 3 and 4 maybe looked a little weak.

2. Checked w/ timing light during cranking. 10 BTDC dead on, flashing about twice a second. For the sake of my curiosity, I checked all the other plug wires besides one and they all flash at approx the same rate.

3. Measured the voltage on the blue wire. Key on has 12v dead on, while cranking it dropped to 10.5-11 but didn't bounce too much.
*I measured from (one of the blue wires) blue wire on + to ground at the strut tower. Not sure if that is correct or would alter the measurement.

4. I deemed this unnecessary. I've made mistakes before, but the plug wires are in the right order and the dizzy is in about the right area.

5. I pulled the rail and ziplock'd the injectors. With the injectors unplugged, key on, during cranking, and after. No fuel in the bags. Plugged them back in and got several squirts. The fuel looked a little brown in 3 and 4, but the injector outsides may have been dirty? Can old fuel cause a complete nostart no stumble?

The only thing I didn't get to was checking the flywheel/flexplate position. If the timing light is hitting 10 BTDC wouldn't that rule that out? Or is that the next step?

Last edited by mrak; 12-11-2019 at 01:06 AM..
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Old 12-11-2019, 05:55 AM   #28
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I am reminded of a story from years ago when GM throttle body fuel injection was a new thing on cars. A customer had his two-week-old Cadillac towed into the dealership with a "no-start" problem. For two weeks, every technician at the dealership worked on it trying to start it but to no avail. We checked for spark, compression, timing; pulled codes; set codes; checked fuel pressure; checked to see if the bumpers fell off... Every conceivable thing was done to this vehicle we could think of and still no start. Finally, one of the techs decided to check the fuel spray/pattern from the throttle body. He got a bit of the spray on a piece of paper, tried to light it with a cigarette lighter, and it did not ignite. The tank and fuel system were drained, filled with fresh fuel, and the car fired right up.

After contacting the owner, who then spoke to his younger children, it was discovered that the kids were playing "gas station" with the new Cadillac and garden hose.
---Bruce in Oregon via Rock Auto
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by mrak View Post
Alright so today with SwedishK I finally got out to continue to troubleshoot the car.

No start, not even a stumble.

1. I had SwedishK check spark at the plug while cranking. 1 and 2 were fine. He thought 3 and 4 maybe looked a little weak.

2. Checked w/ timing light during cranking. 10 BTDC dead on, flashing about twice a second. For the sake of my curiosity, I checked all the other plug wires besides one and they all flash at approx the same rate.

3. Measured the voltage on the blue wire. Key on has 12v dead on, while cranking it dropped to 10.5-11 but didn't bounce too much.
*I measured from (one of the blue wires) blue wire on + to ground at the strut tower. Not sure if that is correct or would alter the measurement.

4. I deemed this unnecessary. I've made mistakes before, but the plug wires are in the right order and the dizzy is in about the right area.

5. I pulled the rail and ziplock'd the injectors. With the injectors unplugged, key on, during cranking, and after. No fuel in the bags. Plugged them back in and got several squirts. The fuel looked a little brown in 3 and 4, but the injector outsides may have been dirty? Can old fuel cause a complete nostart no stumble?

The only thing I didn't get to was checking the flywheel/flexplate position. If the timing light is hitting 10 BTDC wouldn't that rule that out? Or is that the next step?
Sounds like all the tests were done correctly, but didn't show any issues.

4. Just to make sure, when at TDC with the disti rotor tip near the scribe mark, did you verify that the #1 cam lobes were both pointing up (look through the oil filler cap)?

5. Timing light showing 10 BTDC means flywheel/flexplate position is good.

Next step would be starting fluid.
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Old 12-11-2019, 02:41 PM   #30
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Sounds like all the tests were done correctly, but didn't show any issues.

4. Just to make sure, when at TDC with the disti rotor tip near the scribe mark, did you verify that the #1 cam lobes were both pointing up (look through the oil filler cap)?

5. Timing light showing 10 BTDC means flywheel/flexplate position is good.

Next step would be starting fluid.
So I did clear and try starting fluid. But I was trying to get it through a vacuum port and it probably wasn't atomizing the best. The only other thing I can think to do is pull the intake, open the throttle body and spray in.

Is there anything that would cause a spark plug not to fire in the head, when it is firing grounded against the chassis? Do the plugs (when installed) ground through the block ground?
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Old 12-11-2019, 03:09 PM   #31
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Open the throttle plate, blast three long sprays in there and then crank. Have a buddy crank, you pulse some at the throttle while it's cranking. If it starts, keep pulsing sprays into the throttle.

We drive 6 liter V8 trucks into the bay running em on just brake cleaner. (Dead fuel pump)
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Old 12-11-2019, 03:15 PM   #32
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So I did clear and try starting fluid. But I was trying to get it through a vacuum port and it probably wasn't atomizing the best. The only other thing I can think to do is pull the intake, open the throttle body and spray in.

Is there anything that would cause a spark plug not to fire in the head, when it is firing grounded against the chassis? Do the plugs (when installed) ground through the block ground?
Yes, compression and fuel will blow the spark out. Old spark plug cleaners actually were set up to test for this. Drain all your gas and put in fresh gas and a new set of spark plugs and report back. I'll bet you have gas that is so bad it has ruined the plugs.
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Old 12-11-2019, 03:16 PM   #33
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I'd guess brake cleaner would work in Alaska, but I know starting fluid will. Easy way to get around the throttle plate is just as I presume you did it -- through the vacuum port for the FPR.

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Old 12-11-2019, 03:24 PM   #34
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^^ I have had plugs so bad after they were contaminated by bad gas they wouldn't fire ether. OP. Try what Art is showing there and that should tell the story.
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Old 12-11-2019, 05:37 PM   #35
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Also you didn't mention how the squirts of gas looked. They shouldl be a fine atomized squirt of gas. Not a stream or anything like that.

In June I diagnosed a no start with a 70k mile 780. It had disgusting fouled plugs from injectors that squirted fuel but the fuel wasn't atomized. A new set of plugs and replacement injectors cured the car which started right up and drove well.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:18 PM   #36
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Also you didn't mention how the squirts of gas looked. They shouldl be a fine atomized squirt of gas. Not a stream or anything like that.

In June I diagnosed a no start with a 70k mile 780. It had disgusting fouled plugs from injectors that squirted fuel but the fuel wasn't atomized. A new set of plugs and replacement injectors cured the car which started right up and drove well.
I couldn't make a definitive statement in regards to the spray. With the injectors plugged in, the rail was barely above the valve cover and the ziploc bags around the injectors were fairly compressed. Looked more like a squirt than a mist but again, smashed ziploc bag was obfuscating a bit.
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Old Yesterday, 06:31 AM   #37
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You mentioned 'Distributor rotor looks like where it's suppose to be be, as well as you can tell without seeing the timing mark'.

Hopefully your rotor doesn't look like the one in the photo(which is not lined up to the timing mark) ?


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Old Yesterday, 06:49 AM   #38
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Quote:
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I couldn't make a definitive statement in regards to the spray. With the injectors plugged in, the rail was barely above the valve cover and the ziploc bags around the injectors were fairly compressed. Looked more like a squirt than a mist but again, smashed ziploc bag was obfuscating a bit.
Might be worthwhile to remove the injectors, feed them some brake cleaner or similar, and power them with a battery. That way you can watch the output instead of having to catch gasoline in bags.
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Old Yesterday, 12:38 PM   #39
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If you can't get it to run on starting fluid (using the correct method) it is not the injectors.
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