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#1 |
Board Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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![]() Hey everyone,
I'd like some feedback on the hydraulic clutch set-up that I have installed in my 5.0 swapped Volvo 240. -Modified clutch pedal to push instead of pull (mounted in the upper pivot in the pedal box, and lengthened to be at the correct position next to the brake pedal) -Volvo 260 Master Cylinder (3/4" bore) -CNC Clutch Slave Cylinder (7/8" bore, push style), mounted to the side of the T5 pushing against the clutch fork The problem I'm seeing is that that I'm not getting much movement at the clutch fork. The clutch fork travels between 0.5 and 0.75 inches at the most... and from what I've gathered reading online it should be more around 1 1/4 inches. Looking into what is causing this lack for clutch fork movement, my first thought was that it's not properly bled. But I even used a motive pressure bleeder until no more bubbles were coming out, and the clutch fork begins moving as soon as I move the pedal. Then I checked the total movement I am getting at the clutch master cylinder input rod. I measured this to be 3/4 inch. Is this clutch input rod travel normal? Seems too little to me. Also, this brings me to my other issue with the way the system is sized right now; the clutch pedal is waaayyy too light. I think I must have buggered the clutch pedal ratio and ratio between master and slave bores. Now that I realize that the pedal travel is restricted to 3/4 inch, I did some calculations on what size master cylinder I should purchase to yield the 1 1/4 inch travel at the clutch fork. Ratio between input and output travels = 1.25 / 0.75 = 1.6667 CNC Slave Bore = 0.875" CNC Slave Area = pi*(0.875/2)^2 = 0.6013 inch^2 Area of needed master = 0.6013*1.6667 = 1.002 inch^2 1.002 = pi*r^2 r=SQRT(1.002/pi)=0.5358" New Master Cylinder Bore = 0.5358" * 2 = 1.129" (1 1/8 inch) Here is the wildwood master cylinder I am considering getting, it should give me enough clutch fork movement and a firmer clutch pedal: http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinde...emno=260-10376 Picture of the Slave Cylinder ![]() Another Pic of the Slave Cylinder ![]() Pic of the Clutch Pedal Box ![]() Pic of the Master Cylinder ![]() |
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#2 |
equal opportunity car guy
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tucson ish
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![]() Here is a bump for you.
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_____________________________________________ 80 Bertone (part-time driver) learn how to 5.0-Volvo here.... http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=250257 B20 sound! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FpMWALskko 242, https://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=344891 |
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#3 |
Prius Owner
![]() Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
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![]() I think the pin no the slave is sticking through the fork and thats only giving you that lack of distance. You want the whole rod to be on the back of the form pushing not pushing through it.
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93 245 LS Engine Swap Project |
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#4 |
Do you have a cobalt?
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: appleton WI
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![]() The back side of the 260 master push rod is adjustable, thread it as far back as possible and it will displace more fluid. Also moving the push rod inward as possible will gain you more travel. I currently have more than enough travel at just about an inch travel.
Here's a video, not sure if any of that helps. Also there was a few times I thought I had it bleed fully and didnt and had a bit less travel
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1983 242dl *6.0 lq4 swaped* Build thread http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=282323 Last edited by 2fast242gt; 09-12-2016 at 04:13 PM.. |
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#5 |
Volvo upgrades
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Wales
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![]() It does not look anything like a 260 master cylinder to me. Must be off something else. The slave looks a little too close to the fork but not sure how much that will effect things
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#6 |
Board Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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![]() Actually it is just a threaded rod from McMaster Carr, with nuts/washer snugged up against the clutch fork. That is why it is passing through the fork.
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#7 | |
Board Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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![]() Quote:
How much travel do you have at the clutch input rod? I'm wondering if I have less than what's normal (because it looks like we have the same clutch slave cylinders. |
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#8 | |
Board Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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![]() Quote:
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#9 |
Moar Volvos than Queen B
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Peoria Illinois
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![]() If you're worried about your ratios being off, you shouldn't be looking at area. You need to be looking at the volume of fluid that your master and slave displace.
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Ben 12 WRX Hatchback 10 Subaru Outback 93 245 m47 |
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#10 | |
Board Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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![]() Quote:
Or transversely I could decrease the area of the slave cylinder, which would mean it would stroke further. Problem here is that the slave I bought does not come in any other sizes, only 7/8". Wilwood is very flexible when it comes to different size masters. |
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#11 | |
Board Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Dalles, Oregon
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![]() Does the rod on the slave hit the bellhousing? from the pics it looks like it could get hung up.
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Quote:
The Build Thread SVEA - PUSHROD TURBO! |
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#12 |
Board Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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![]() Good point. It currently does not hit the bellhousing, but I could definitely see it hitting once I start getting more travel out of it. I will probably trim the excess off the rod with a dremel cut-off wheel. Thanks!
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#13 |
Board Member
![]() Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rushing Lane, Scappoose, OR
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![]() The little pusher arm you welded on your pedal to push the rod that pushes the master cylinder is too short. Because of this it doesn't push enough. Needs to be longer, she said..
From the looks of your picture, looks like your push rod is half the size of mine or half the length of normal.. Girth don't matter as long as it don't break. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 740 turbo master and slave also. A longer rod will go deeper into the hole... Notice the length of it, dat bend.. Should I get out my measuring tape so we can compare? Heck yeah! Stand by for actual shaft measurements...
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1988 245 White slicktop M47 Wagon! 93 b230f. LH 2.4 STS flat flywheel. 1990 745 B230FT Getrag JohnV flywheel 240mm clutch 13c A-cam 3.54 G80 548K 1991 740SE B230FT NPR Strut braces IPD bar A cam 550cc EV14's. 3.73 G80 M90 to put in. 1995 940 White racing wagoon. 13c m90 to put in ![]() Last edited by sbabbs; 09-12-2016 at 03:02 PM.. |
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#14 | |
Do you have a cobalt?
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: appleton WI
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![]() Quote:
edit, your pedal push tab does seem shorter than factory which obviously will push less fluid. |
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#15 |
Do you have a cobalt?
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: appleton WI
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![]() sounds like you never seen a 260 master, because thats what he has from the looks of it. looks the same as my 260 master.
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#16 |
Board Member
![]() Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rushing Lane, Scappoose, OR
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![]() Yeah but classicswede is in right hand drive land and they might use different master, like the queen.
Also I was the one that said his welded rod thingy was too short first... |
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#17 | ||
Board Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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![]() Quote:
Quote:
Yeah, I think we have identified the problem. I didn't realize that the pedal-push-tab needed to be that long. I kinda just lined it up with the center of the master, but in your picture it clearly extends further to give more master cylinder stroke. Now I just need to consider whether to redo the pedal tab or get a new master. Thanks for the input everyone!!! |
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#18 |
Board Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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![]() For reference when I did this someone measured the length of the tab on a 940 (I was using 940 master and slave) as just under 2" (50mm?). I ended up with a 59mm arm without issue.
Link - http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=234633
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1990 240 driftwagon - B230FX+T - M90 - other fun stuff. Now sold unfortunately. |
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#19 | |
Volvo upgrades
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Wales
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![]() Quote:
Must be a US market thing. Europe have this style master cylinder http://www.classicswede.co.uk/Clutch...4_8407173.aspx Either style should work fine by the looks of it. As already pointed out the length of the arm on the pedel is most likely the issue |
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#20 |
Board Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Shropshire, England, UK
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![]() Just put a concentric release bearing in the damned thing, forks are for fish and chips ;)
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#21 |
Do you have a cobalt?
![]() Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: appleton WI
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#22 |
Volvo upgrades
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North Wales
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![]() Totally agree. Not so bad having the slave in the box when you can get the box off quickly but this FWD tosh that takes ages to take off is a real pain.
Keep it easy to fix as thing can and will go wrong |
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#23 |
Board Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Shropshire, England, UK
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![]() I think you are doing the reliability of a decent concentric release cylinder a disservice, they are EXTREMELY reliable if chosen and implemented correctly, they will long outlive several clutches in a performance environment
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#24 |
Moar Volvos than Queen B
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Peoria Illinois
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![]() Chris, this is turbobricks.....we don't do anything correctly...
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#25 |
Board Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Shropshire, England, UK
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