The 240 coilover list - post yours please.

There are now more than a few people running coilover setups on their 2** cars and almost every one of them is different in some way. I thought I'd make a thread requesting C/Oed 240 drivers to state some info about their setup to make it easier for members (ie, me) who are considering following in their footsteps.

As such I've made a convenient point form list to make it easy to fill out. It'd be cool if you used that format to keep it logical. Then if the thread gets long enough maybe we can turn it into a database or somesuch.

I've been researching but I really don't understand coil spring theory... ie height vs weight vs diameter etc so any links on the subject would be appreciated.


Here's some links to TB threads (Let me know if I've missed any important ones)

240 Coilovers: The Kyote Way

Shortened struts for low 240s

short strut inserts

WeezilUSA's Vurbo thread


Complete setups/fabricators (Let me know if I missed someone and I'll add them- does Evil Genius still do Volvo stuff?)

Kaplhenke Racing

John V.

RSI

DVS


THE 240 COILOVER LIST



-Car basic info: (ie 1990 244 with b23/m46) feel free to link to your project thread or coilover thread if you've got one.


-Reason for going coilover: (if racing state form of racing, ie autocross)



-Strut body: regular or shortened (list details if shortened; ie how much did you cut off, did you get them rethreaded, etc)



-Coilover setup : homemade or complete setup (ie Kaplhenke). state as much info about the specs of your setup as possible. (ie part numbers, length of sleeves etc)



-Springs : state Length/diameter/rate/brand and your opinion of them. (if you've tried more than one post up each one and your experience)



-Strut inserts : state brand/model and tell your experience. If you're using shortened struts, state what brand/model/year of vehicle your inserts are designed for and the brand/model of the insert (ie '99 Saab 9-3 Koni Sports)



-Camber plates : If so equipped state brand



-Fabrication and Fitment notes : State any issues you ran into during assembly (ie if the springs you chose were too long to lower the car to where you wanted to because the tire hits the adjuster )




-Opinions : your thoughts on your setup and links to thread/websites that helped out




thanks all!

M.

Hi Mark,

I'll bite. First off, RSI makes completed assemblies.

-Car basic info: (ie 1990 244 with b23/m46) feel free to link to your project thread or coilover thread if you've got one.
1981 242 Turbo with b21ft/Getrag, gutted with roll bar


-Reason for going coilover: (if racing state form of racing, ie autocross)
Wanted stiffer spring rates than sport springs allowed, and adjustability. Car has mainly been autocrossed so far, but plan to take it to HPDE's etc.


-Strut body: regular or shortened (list details if shortened; ie how much did you cut off, did you get them rethreaded, etc)
Shortened, I think I cut 2.5" from center of the strut. Used a lathe to make the cut straight (and turn down the outside diameter of the tube). Got the top piece welded to the bottom piece, so it is still using the original threaded section (couldn't find a tap, and my lathe can't cut metric 1mm threads).


-Coilover setup : homemade or complete setup (ie Kaplhenke). state as much info about the specs of your setup as possible. (ie part numbers, length of sleeves etc)
Home made, using 5" 2.08 ID threaded sleeves from Coleman Racing.


-Springs : state Length/diameter/rate/brand and your opinion of them. (if you've tried more than one post up each one and your experience)
8"/2.5" Diameter/400lbs/Blue Coil (from RSI)... I love them. Quality of springs are excellent, and the spring rate is about what I want for now.



-Strut inserts : state brand/model and tell your experience. If you're using shortened struts, state what brand/model/year of vehicle your inserts are designed for and the brand/model of the insert (ie '99 Saab 9-3 Koni Sports)
Bilstein from Rsi (PN 5107-24CS), they are valved stiffer than the 9-3 inserts, but outside dimensions seem to be similar.



-Camber plates : If so equipped state brand
Now using Mookeh's from ebay (universal plates). Previously used Noltecs.


-Fabrication and Fitment notes : State any issues you ran into during assembly (ie if the springs you chose were too long to lower the car to where you wanted to because the tire hits the adjuster )
Spring to wheel clearance is tight with the 8" spring and 16x7.5" wheels (et20) with how low I wanted to go. This is not an issue with 18" wheels. Noltec camber plates did not allow for maximal camber, so I switched to the mookeh's... Had to make a custom metal bushing to adapt the strut insert into the bearing, and cut the top of the strut tower. Also, if sectioning the strut tubes like I did, when re-welding be very careful to not warp the tube. Clearance is very tight with the insert, and it can cause some issues if that binds up.




-Opinions : your thoughts on your setup and links to thread/websites that helped out
I used helpful hints from all of the threads you linked there... Good stuff. RSI was very helpful w/ getting the parts I needed, and giving me spring rate suggestions.

RSI added to the list- Thanks for posting up!

I've also added a link page six of your excellent project thread which has a ton of good info.

Thanks!

M.

I ordered coleman 450-701. That is the 2.08" ID x 7" long sleeve kit.

I cut them down because the sleeves were too long.

The kit to buy is the 450-501.

This is being made more complex than need be.

A marmoset could do the conversion, it's that easy. Cut the existing lower perch off, leaving 1/4" of it still on the tube to act as a stop ring for the sleeve. Attack the strut tube with a flapdisc on a 4.5" grinder until the sleeve slides over (basically you grind the paint of plus just a little bit). It should be snug so it won't flop around on the tube.

Whack the sleeve on with a mallet. Drill out the top spring perch just slightly as needed to sit correctly on the strut rod.

Done.

I could literally pull 2 struts, convert them, and reinstall them in 2 hours.

Coleman made it more confusing than that for me. I HOPE that's what I just ordered for me and Jason. The phone sales guy didn't have it listed even though he could see it on the website so he built some kits for me. I ordered 5"x 2.08" ID sleeves with Bilstein shock tops. Sound right?

I'm hopefully gonna do short struts so there'll be a bit more work than that for me. Ordered some used Saab 9-3 inserts offa fleabay, so we'll see.


I think this list has a place here, especially for things like spring choices and actual practical use. Speaking of which, what springs do you have? You wanted shorter ones than you currently have for clearance didn't you?


M.

Mark said:

Coleman made it more confusing than that for me. I HOPE that's what I just ordered for me and Jason. The phone sales guy didn't have it listed even though he could see it on the website so he built some kits for me. I ordered 5"x 2.08" ID sleeves with Bilstein shock tops. Sound right?

I'm hopefully gonna do short struts so there'll be a bit more work than that for me. Ordered some used Saab 9-3 inserts offa fleabay, so we'll see.


I think this list has a place here, especially for things like spring choices and actual practical use. Speaking of which, what springs do you have? You wanted shorter ones than you currently have for clearance didn't you?


M.

Click to expand...

love to see your pics when all said and done

somebody has tried the Blue Coil Spring kit?

I had the blue coil springs, in a 10inch length, 250lb. The car sat at just a tiny bit below stock level with the adjuster just above the tire. I swapped to an 8" 300lb eibach spring. I wish I could take a picture of the difference between the springs, the space between coils is larger, allowing for more travel before binding. Ill try and get a picture when I swap out the struts.

I've got the coleman kit, with Bens version one camber plates. I'm going to swap that all out for Bens short strut and new design camber plates. With the way my car currently sits I only have about an inch of travel in the front.

Jordan
Posted via Mobile Device

GTJordan said:

blue coil springs, in a 10inch length, 250lb.


8" 300lb eibach spring.

Click to expand...

Hey Jordan!

I assume the firmer spring rate was needed due to the shorter height for less coil bind?

Was the 1" of travel was due to bottoming the strut at a low ride height?

M.

the bottoming is because the strut is at the end of its travel. And yeah I went to the firmer rate because of the shorter spring, but the space between each coil on the eibach is much more then the blue coil I was running that I probably could have got away with a 250lb eibach and not encountered bind.

Jordan

I'll get my specs later but I am running the MVP setup because I roll OG old school. Modified the strut tubes to make em fit.
Upper and lower braces on the body to stiffen it up.
Billies.

-Car basic info:
'87 244, B23ET/M47, ~2750lbs with driver

-Reason:
Higher spring rate. Too much lean with Jamex springs: http://www.pbase.com/towerymt/image/93432990.jpg

-Strut body:
old: Standard '82+ cores with the spring seat cut off and ground smooth.
new: '90 tubes shortened around 3" to fit the DA Koni 8611
both had steel rings welded to the tube for a lower stop for the threaded sleeve.

-Coilover setup:
old: homemade
new: Kaplhenke
I think I have 7" sleeves on each. 5" is enough.

-Springs:
'04-'10 - 8" x 475lb x 2.5" Eibach
'10 - 7" x 550lb x 2.5" Eibach

-Strut inserts:
old: Bilstein HD for 240, revalved to 250Nm/120Nm, and droop reduced by ~1.25"
new: Koni DA 8611, few inches shorter

-Camber plates:
old: Kaplhenke V1.1 (like Noltec), multi piece steel
new: Group A replica, one piece aluminum

old:


new:

FWIW, the information in this thread almost exclusively applies to 7/9 series cars as well. The struts are different, but same diameter, same process to remove the spring perch, and similar length and rate springs are used.

Lots of stuff that is written about spring selection is confusing, and clouds the issues or overlooks others...

The basic criteria are:
a) Suitable spring rate.
b) Spring fits over the strut body.
c) Tyre/wheel doen't rub on the spring or spring seat.
d) Spring remains 'captive' between the spring seats, even at full droop.
e) Spring has more travel than the strut insert.

To address those criteria in order of difficulty:
b) is obvious and easy to get right.

a) is largely personal preference. My main comment here is that most people go too stiff in their springs, particularly in cars that are 'sporty' daily drivers.
On a road car, you need the wheel to track over bumps - if it feels bumpy then its too stiff! The old "it rides like a go-kart so it must handle good" line is utter nonsense - road tyres need usable suspension travel to work properly. If you're running full circuit slicks on a circuit, then that's when you start going for stiff springs and very low ride heights.

I'm a big believer in using 'real' sway bars for road and road/track cars, so anything above about 300lb/in in the front of a road 240 would have me feeling nervous. If you run without/with skinny swaybars, then you'll probably want stiffer springs to control the body roll. Personally, I'm not a fan of this method because it makes the car uncomfortable to be in and slower in the real world.

d) is not really a concern - the worst case scenario is that you can fit 'tender springs', which keep the main spring captive without altering the spring rate. If you use tender springs, then you partially/completely side-step e) as well. With tender springs, you only need to ensure that at static height, the available bump travel of the spring is greater than the available bump travel of the shock - it would be unusual that this didn't happen automatically.
To calculate this accurately requires info that isn't readily available, but if you think you've got a reason to worry about it, then I'll take some educated guesses for you.

c) is actually trickier than it appears. Most standard springs will sit entirely above the top of the tyre. With coil-covers, you may find that to get all of the other aspects right, you need a long spring that places the lower spring seat below the top edge of the tyre - this obviously means that you've got to fit the spring and/or seat between the strut and the tyre.
Obviously your choice of wheels and tyres makes a big difference to this, but I'd be surprised if a 60mm ID spring on a stock strut body caused any dramas.


Some other stuff:
1. Rate. While soft vs hard is obvious, the implementation can get confusing when you're trying to juggle the other factors. The main thing to remember is that changing the dimensions of the spring will change the spring rate, but manufacturers sell springs based on their rate, not on their dimensions.
Eg: If you had two 250lb/in springs, and one of them is twice as long as the other, they will be made from radically different diameter wire - but they will both still be 250lb/in. Its very easy to lose sight of this when you're reading tons of theory stuff and pouring over spring dimension listings.

2. Free length. Most people think "shorter = better", but this is WRONG for coil-overs - remember that you need to avoid coil-bind as a priority. You can always weld the threaded tube in a lower position on the tube if you want the car to sit lower.

3. Shocks matter! I don't reckon you can go past correctly valved monotubes (ie: Bilsteins), but other people are happy with their Konis.
Road cars generally want at least 150mm of total travel (maybe down to 120mm if you live somewhere with good roads). Regardless of how much travel you end up with, you should aim for about 66% of it to be available as bump travel when the car is at ride height.

Lots of coil-over set-ups (particularly the japanese dorifto stuff) has so little travel that you need to wind the springs all the way up, leaving no available droop travel. On real-world roads, this makes the car handle like pooh, and the wheels lose contact with the ground over the smallest of undulations.


And in the original format:

-Car basic info: '82 244GL rally car. http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=181734

-Reason for going coilover: To allow more camber, to be able to use 'generic' springs, and to fit onto custom strut bodies.

-Strut body: Line pipe.

-Coilover setup : 100% home made.

-Springs : Kings brand, 65mm ID, 200lb/in and 350mm free length (not 100% sure on that last bit - but they are long)

-Strut inserts : Bilstein 50mm OD. Very similar to what John V uses in his struts. Can't recall the valving specs, but they are very close to being right

-Camber plates : Spacspeed.

-Fabrication and Fitment notes : Its in the build thread.

-Opinions : Overkill for a road car, but would be a great set-up on a road car - I'm toying with the idea of building another set for my road 242... I'd go for 250lb/in springs for a road car though.

Gabe! avoiding coil bind!!!???
What are you thinking, ALL the ex-spurts here all reccomend spring which are virtually certain to coil bind in maybe 4"/100mm travel, so that must be the correct thing!!!
So what if the suspension unit has 5, 6, or 7" travel...it's universal, gotta have short.

I really have no idea why I use 14" long springs when there's 200mm strut travel...

Obviously I'm wrong.

How does one determine what won't bind John? Is there a X length spring to Y length strut travel sorta "ballpark" formula?

M.

If you know:
the amount of travel that the strut insert has (including the travel used when the bump stop is compressed down hard);
the weight on the spring (ie: the corner weigh minus the weight of the wheel, lower strut, brake, etc);
the difference between the spring's free length and its compressed length; and
the spring rate.

...then you can work out whether it will coil bind.

Because the spring will (almost always) be partially compressed at full droop, you can't just compare the spring's travel with the strut's travel.

Spac said:

Because the spring will (almost always) be partially compressed at full droop, you can't just compare the spring's travel with the strut's travel.

Click to expand...

Maybe. With long/soft springs, sure. With short/stiff springs, maybe not.

Free length may be misleading if the spring is partially compressed at full droop, because you've reduced your spring travel before beginning to use any strut travel. And the opposite case would occur when using short/stiff springs that are not touching both spring seats at full droop, so the strut travels before the spring is compressed at all.

Spac said:

the amount of travel that the strut insert has (including the travel used when the bump stop is compressed down hard);
the weight on the spring (ie: the corner weigh minus the weight of the wheel, lower strut, brake, etc);
the difference between the spring's free length and its compressed length; and
the spring rate.

Click to expand...

That's what I was afraid of... it's really "racecar engineer" level math- not too many people on TB have the resources at home to figure out corner sprung weight.

I was hoping for a more "shadetree mechanic" friendly formula... just to make sure you're not ordering something that won't fit at all. Coilovers have the same problem Megasquirting a car does for an amateur- tons of tuneability introduces tons of ways to screw your car up if you don't know what you're doing.

M.

Spac said:

If you know:
the amount of travel that the strut insert has (including the travel used when the bump stop is compressed down hard);
the weight on the spring (ie: the corner weigh minus the weight of the wheel, lower strut, brake, etc);
the difference between the spring's free length and its compressed length; and
the spring rate.

...then you can work out whether it will coil bind.

Because the spring will (almost always) be partially compressed at full droop, you can't just compare the spring's travel with the strut's travel.

Click to expand...

And, of course since I am a generally friendly guy and a "Bluecoils" (Suspension Spring Specialist) dealer, I ask them "hey what's the travel on that to coilbind?"


Seriously guys, there is an amazing amount of hairsplitting wanking done here about things which are virtually immeasurable, or potentially unnoticeable, but this business of
a) Springs way to hard ---for the dampers they are controlling and
b) springs WAY TOO SHORT

are too things that leave me sputtering because both are so common even from guys who postilion themselves to be ex-spurts..

It is REALLY frustrating that the cost of good stuff is what it is, and that the normal 'oneriness' of people so clouds and ruins discussions on stuff FAIRLY easy to do "pretty damn good"---and that is alwqays my goal---PRETTY DAMN GOOD---(not some theoretical perfection)

Boys, you HAVE TO get the dampers stiffer to some KNOWN numbers.

Normally you choose spring first and then damper to control the spring..
Well we can get all sorts of springs, but its annoyingly expensive to get the dampers to match...


And note: if the dampers are doing anything worthwhile---ie they're firm enough on compression, you can get away with MUCH softer springs than most of you guys and the ex-spurts---are saying and using...

With a good insert in front its pretty amazing what a 275 or 300 in lb spring feels like---it is afterall about 300% stiffer than original.

So, how can we convince you guys that spending the money for OPTIMIZED, valved to a realistic number inserts is a really worthwhile idea for you cheep bastids...?

Here's one thing: you valve and spring your stuff right, then they are WORTH MORE than the lame, too limp so called HD Bilsteins which my stand for hardly doing...
And they'll retain their value...